Horse owners need options for humane disposal of animal

Editor:

I would like to know when will people wake up to the problems American horses and their owners are facing. The horse industry is all but been destroyed since the processing plants closed in 2007.

There are a large number of horses being starved to death, turned out to fend for themselves, turned loose in other pastures in hopes someone will care for them, tied outside of zoos and even tied to a post on country roads hoping someone will take them in.

Out West the domestic horses are being turned loose with the wild mustang herds, some have even had the brand cut out and then turned loose.

This has got to stop — the animal rights groups and bleeding hearts have no idea what they have done. I went to a horse sale here in Ohio a few weeks ago and a horse that should have sold for more than $2,000 sold for $345. She was a well broke to ride 7-year-old in very good condition. A child rode her in the sell ring.

The plants being shut down have destroyed the horse market, and more importantly, have destroyed the welfare of the horse. People just can’t afford to care for them any longer and the rescues are turning them away; people don’t have the money to pay to have a vet come out, put them down and have them hauled off.

There is no other option for these horses and their owners. The equine processing plants need to be reopened, horse owners should have that option and should have the right to dispose of their animal as they want, in a humane manner.

Horses are livestock, not pets, and livestock go to slaughter at some point in their life. Slaughter is better than starvation.

Billie Welty

Fairpoint, Ohio

468 Comments

  1. Shelia says:

    Just this week I was contacted that a donkey and a pony had been dumped on a rural road and that the locals were asking if anyone would take them. The local animal control was contacted and refused to pick them up because they did not have the money to take care of them. The last that I heard, someone had finally taken them in. In the 4+ years since the closing of the processing facilities, I have turned down over 60 free horses. I have been contacted and asked to help place herds as large as 25 horses that the owners can not afford to feed and can not get anyone to buy.

    I know of horses being shot and left dead in the road ditch and people coming home to find 2-3 horses turned into their pastures. There are state parks where trail riders complain of stray horses following them around and coming back to camp with them. And yet the anti-slaughter crowd claims that there is no unwanted horse problem.

    The anti-slaughter delegation will tell you that it is all because of the economy and has nothing to do with closing of the processing facilities. Cavel closed in May of 2007, in my area, we saw the family horse/trail ride horses begin crashing by July/August of that year. The US economy hit the skids in the fall of 2008, more than a year later. The American horse industry had a perfect storm, we could have weathered one of these issues and had time to adapt, but both of these catastrophies together have not allowed us time to financially adapt and have crushed many horse related businesses.

    • vicki says:

      Sheila, thank you. You have proved our point. Cavel didn’t close until September 21, 2007 so the decline you mentioned started before the closure. The law was passed in May of 2007 but they were operating under a TRO until Sept 21 when they finally were shut down.

      But it didn’t matter because they had already moved operations to Natural Valley Meats in Canada and were all set for the closure so there was no interruption in killing horses.

      If you going to make something up, at least get the dates straight.

      • Marie Ewan says:

        Oh my someone gets it right,ask them for truth, good luck with that one. Here is another huge truth folks, the economy went into the tanker in 2008, do you think that the major breeder groups came out and said, hey lets breed less since the market is down? That is the solution, not slaughter, you people keep breeding and fussing cause no one wants to buy your products, (horses), make less of them, it is called a business plan, lots of buyers, lots of product, no buyers, less product, and the nerve of you to whine about the cost of a horse or value at sale, when you create the very problem you claim is a problem. And then ask me to use my tax dollars to pay for your problem you created, do you all work or did you work on wallstreet or the big banks?

      • Amy says:

        This is really to Marie. The responsible breeders have cut back on the number of horses bred each year. It is the backyard breeders you have to worry about. I know a breeder who gelded her stallions because they were unable to obtain breedings for them (and these were world champions), they also only bred one mare that year and have since been selling off their herd and have stopped breeding all together. Responsible breeders have noticed the situation and are not breeding as much as they used to. You can see this by how many fewer horses are being registered each year.

    • Jennifer Facer Brown says:

      The decline in horse population started before closure of slaughterhouses. There has been no decline in horses being slaughtered. They are still being mutilated by the same companies as before, and at a higher number. Registration for new foals has declined greatly. The horses that are neglected dont get slaughtered, they are not meaty enough to fool with. You are basing your comments on hearsay. Actually the economy is the problem, and horses that are being abandoned, aint because, there is no slaughter, cause there are plenty of kill buyers, its because even though the owners cant take care of the horses, they havent the heart to send the horse to slaughter. And the abandonment is slowing down, as the population shifts, and rescues have stepped in.

  2. okiestorm1 says:

    Well said Shelia!

  3. nancy mcmillan says:

    Ms Welty- I have an issue with your statement. First off, if slaughter went away in 2007, how come almost exactly the same number of horses 100-140k a year are still being shipped to Mexico and Canada to be slaughtered? You yourself said it “tied to posts hoping someone will take them in”. That says to me that the owners really do not want to use the auction/killbuyers/slaughter as their method of resolving their financial issues. Auction the horse off they might get a few bucks back. Abandon it and they could face legal action. For those horses that are being abandonded (and the number is wildly overstated) it sure looks like they are saying that they do not want their horses going to slaughter. Also, if you had not noticed, the economy has gone to crap since 2007. People and animals are losing their homes all over the nation. The bubble burst and many were left dazed and confused. The current situation has NOTHING to do with horsemeat inspections being defunded in the US. It has EVERYTHING to do with the economy. It has affected virtually every industry and every American. Many businesses and individuals have realized they have to make changes to keep up with the changing world. Others cry that they miss the good old days and refuse to rethink their business models. A flourishing economy hid a multitude of sins.
    As far as the horses go, the fact of the matter is that both the pro and anti slaughter sides want the same thing- less horses. With the current economic climate, less disposable income for individuals mean less people can afford horses. Consequently, less horses are needed for people to buy. At issue is how that goal is accomplished. One side says let everyone do whatever they want and keep breeding because its their right to do that. They say we will just kill them if they are the wrong color, if they arent fast enough, if we overproduced, if the mares are barren, etc, etc, etc…Any reason works. Having slaughter as an option is alot easier than actually managing your business and making responsible choices and decisions. The other side says stop reproducing them at a rate that exceeds the number of people able to afford them. Clearly decreasing production is the way to go. Does that mean production needs to stop altogether- no. Does it mean that horses should only be produced for which there is a demand? Yes. Here is why- if a horse is never born, you never have to pay to feed it. You never have to pay stud fees. You never have to pay the vet, farrier or trainers. You never spend money you no longer have on all the things horse people do. Some will argue that not paying for these things hurts the economy. Not so. Not creating these horses will put money back into the pockets of the people who are now saying they can no longer afford their horses. If these horses without a buyer are never born, the owners dont have to pay for any horse related expenses at all. End result- they save money. In addition, because there will be less competiton for resources such as hay and grain, demand will be less, so the price will drop. This will put money back into the pockets of everyone who is feeding their horses. Again supply and demand. I for one certainly would not mind seeing my hay and grain prices drop.

    • Jeff says:

      Nancy,

      i notice you didn’t provide your address or offer to help anyone with their horse problem…
      a lot of talk and no action.

      jeff

      • Jan Myers says:

        Jeff…Why would you presume that Nancy McMillan is ” a lot of talk and no action” when you so obviously do not know her? I do and I know her well….She is smart, articulate and knows far more about the slaughter issue than 99% of the pro’s do.

        She is dead on in her comment. The fact of the matter is obvious to anyone that can think clearly (and by clearly I mean anyone that does not have $ signs clouding their judgment. NEWS FLASH…..The economy has tanked and that is the sole reason you see so many abandoned and neglected horses. It is so simple to understand that I am amazed that so many choose to believe the fallacy that the sad shape a lot of horses are in is due to the closing of the domestic slaughter houses. Every single one those people that set their horses free, starved and neglected them their back pasture did it with slaughter still being an option for them. They could have sold their horse before it became emaciated to a Kill Buyer, end of problem, a few bucks in their pocket and horse disappears… But the did and do not choose that option. I have to presume it is because they did not wish them to to slaughtered. Twisted thinking but that is the only reason I can come up with. How about you?

        Simple solution: Breed less horses…Breed quality over quantity and you will soon see the market come back if the economy rebounds as well…If it stays in the tank, nothing is going to help increase the price of an average, run of the mill horse, broke or not broke. Think about it..Do you ever see Freisans, Gypsy Vanners, high end sport horses (excluding thoroughbreds) in feedlots or on trucks heading for the borders? No you don’t. The reason is because they have very tight controls on the breeding of those kinds of horses. I can guarantee you that if they over bred like the rest of the equestrian world you would see them there….So get a clue please….Slaughtering will only perpetuate the over production of many average to less than average horses….Billy Welty has drank the Koolaid that Sue Wallis is serving and it is a shame she cannot think for herself. If she could she would know that Sue and Company are dead wrong about how to help the horse business return to it’s former glory. ~

    • Becca says:

      Two points- Mexico and Canada still have slaughterr- they also still have a horse market. The same horses selling for $100 in the US are selling for $1000 or more in both Mexico and Canada. If slaughter is unbanned and properly regulated in the US, at least we can have some control over how it is done. Now- as our horses are going to other countries, we have NONE. Second, the breeding problem is not generally from the responsible registry breeders, as within the top two, AQHA, APHA, breeding has dropped drastically in the last five years. APHA by 76% and AQHA by 44%. There are at least 200 unregistered stallions on Craiglist in the central Texas area right now. There are thousands throughout the southern US, and thousands throughout every other area of the US. These are the breeders responsible for the non slaughter related crash. When a horse has no training, no provable breeding, and no particular abilities, it has little value. People who are not knowledgable assume this means all horses have low value, and between these issues it has effectively destroyed the. Horse market, not to mention produced many genetically inferior animals with health problems and behavior problems.

      • Cowhorse says:

        Always the breeders faults, but just where in the anti-slaughter groups do they discuss the vast numbers of BLM’s feral horse population and the fact they cost the taxpayers the lion’s share of the BLM budget each year? Additionally, the government (in the form of BLM) offers adoption sales, thus competing with other people trying to sell horses as a private entity.

        I always wonder what the magic wand the anti-everything people plan on offering up to help restore the the equine market and all the periferal businesses that have been negatively impacted. I never hear and answer, but always the same tired response of, “It isn’t OUR fault, it is the ECONOMY’S fault.” Yeah, right. And pigs fly, too.

      • Becca says:

        Cowhorse- I’m afraid you misunderstood my statement. I am a breeder. Most unsellable horses are bred by unknowledgable breeders who have unregistered stock, which is perpetuating health problems, genetic issues and unsoundness. When the market is flooded with horses priced at $100 its more difficult to sell a horse worth $10,000 for their fair price. Many buyers- ones who have not had classes or instruction, think because one horse is priced at $100 then all horses are only worth $100. I’ve seen this logic first hand many times, and that’s why I say that the problem is with irresponsible breeders- not breeders with superior genetics and training that showcases the abilities inherent due to the superior genetics.

      • Suzanne says:

        Becca ~ I don’t get your reasoning. If horses are indeed selling for more in Mexico than in the US, how could it possibly be because we don’t have domestic slaughter plants? We are sending just as many horses to slaughter now as we did before the plants closed. So – where did you get your information about what kind of horse sells for how much here and in Mexico? Maybe horses aren’t as over-bred in Mexico as they are here. Perhaps Mexico’s economy is actually better than ours right now. Ever think of that? It’s quite possible you know.

        As for the “regulation” of US plants, I can only say, “What regulation?” Obviously, you were never inside one of our domestic plants before they closed. Unfortunately, I WAS. I and my horses lived in Dallas, TX for 15 years with Beltex on one side and Dallas Crown on the other. I was at Dallas Crown helping frantic friends search for their stolen horses before it was too late. It was NOT humane. It was NOT “euthanasia” It was NOT “humane harvesting”(GAG). It WAS HELL, and anyone who tells you differently has either never seen it for themselves or they are a soulless lair who not doubt will find a special place in Hell for themselves.

        Actually, they have already earned that Special Place for advocating the slaughter of horses that have been given bute, knowing that these horses remain tainted for the rest of their lives and can cause children that eat their flesh to develop aplastic anemia. Sue Wallis tells people that bute is safe after 30 days. I will NEVER understand how a person can do such a thing. Special Place.

      • upbeatred1 says:

        Beg to differ. As per the USDA, 70% of the horses that go to slaughter yearly – are Quarter Horses. That’s 70,000 Quarter Horses, per YEAR. So where is the responsible breeding here? There is none. A recent interview with AQHA’s Peter Cofrancesco via gohorsehow.com (pub date: 12/6/2011) is important with what it does – and does not – say. First of all, the AQHA lobbies for slaughter. Yep, read the piece (profit motive). Second (not surprisingly) they are anti-rescue. Why? Because if horses are rescued, people can’t make money from sending the horses that they don’t want – to slaughter (profit motive). Third, Cofrancesco makes no mention of humane euthanasia. Once again, profit motive: you can’t sell the animal to slaughter if you have to pay to have it euthanized. Four: greedy breeders will continue to breed indiscriminately because slaughter doesn’t care about conformation, the kill buyers only care about the meat on the animal (profit motive). The AQHA and United Horsemen work together to get slaughter reintroduced into the USA, they just do not do it in the form of an alliance. AQHA is a business, not an organization formed for the welfare of horses. Why? Profit Motive – AQHA is a business. They don’t care about horses.

      • Amanda says:

        Becca FYI horses here in Canada do not always sell for $1000 you’d be lucky to get that much. If you go to an auction here you’d find that 99% of the horses sell for less then $600 usually around the $400 dollar mark or lower. Our horse market has crashed and we currently have 4 slaughter houses open in this country. Slaughter is inhumane just watch any one of the youtube videos that are out from the slaughterhouses right here in Canada. Horse slaughter is inhumane and not a necessity like the pro’s make it out to be all they care about is lining there pockets. Supply and demand if you breed more then is needed then you get unwanted horses that no one can afford if the breeders breed less we wouldnt have this problem

    • Amy says:

      Slaughter stopped in the US but people are shipping them to Mexico and Canada under false pretenses to have them slaughtered. Perhaps you should read the AVMA fact sheet on unwanted horses. It tells you this. It is very helpful in helping people see that horses are worse off sometime without the slaughter happening.
      @ Vicki – captive bolt is considered a humane option for killing a horse. At least in the US a vet was at the slaughter and what happens is Mexico doesn’t happen here. Getting stabbed in the neck until you bleed to death is way worse.

  4. okiestorm1 says:

    Nency, These numbers of abandoned,starven,out n out neglected horses are not just drawn out of a hat.yes horses are being shiped to mexico and Canada for slaughter for now, the HSUS and other AR groups are trying to get that stoped also, then whats gana happen. America should be makeing the money off these horse and people here should have these jobs.Up here in Ohio you can go to an auction anyday of the week and buy cattle,horse,goats,ect. at the same auction, out in oklahoma you can’t.cattle have thier own auctions,as do horses and it not everyday and horse auctions are not in every town or county for that matter.Inalot of places it is illegal to put down your own horse, you have to have a vet come out then you have to pay for the haul off you can’t just burry it on your property, this runs into hundreds of dollars people can’t afford.You say there are programs to help with the cost of putting your animal down,what programs and what states.you say the pro and anti slaughter groups want the same thing,wrong, the pro want horse owners to have an option, the anti do not, the anti want horses classified as pets to where the ritch can only afford to have one they want them chiped, tracked, regulated, they want to controll what you do with your own animal.Horses are livestock not pets and should be treated as such.

    • Suzanne says:

      I hate to bust your bubble, okiestorm1, but the HSUS has never been a significant player in the horse slaughter wars, so whatever their beliefs are about animal “rights” it’s completely beside the point. The HSUS is NOT running this movement – never has, never will.

      The anti-slaughter movement is not the product of ANY AR group. It’s the product of grassroots horse owners like me who are sick of the horrors we have seen with our own eyes. We are sick of our horses and those of our friends being stolen and sold for slaughter almost before anyone notices they are gone. We’re sick of being afraid to sell a horse because the killers are notorious for misrepresenting themselves to sellers.

      Nancy was right in her earlier post when she suggested that people who abandoned their horses when slaughter was available did it because they didn’t want their horses slaughtered. That happened right here in my area. When the authorities caught up with the owners they told them that they did it in the hopes they would be rescued instead of going to slaughter as they surely would if sold at auction. These horses WERE rescued BTW.

      We are not Vegans nor do we believe owning animals is equal to slavery. If we thought that, we wouldn’t own horses, now would we? Most of us have NO problem with traditional animal-ag, no matter what scare tactics Ms Wallis attempts to use.

      I really am getting tired of this AR junk. They had NOTHING to do with it. Back in the 70s, 80s and 90s when we were frantically trying to keep every horse in Texas from ending up in Beltex or Dallas Crown, I SURE didn’t see any help from ANY of them.

  5. okiestorm1 says:

    Just so you know, to sell a horse at a sale barn is not free,you say people turn thier horse out because they don’t want them to go to slaughter,,maybe its cause they can’t afford the gas,the fee at the sale barn or the coggins the horse has to have.if a horse has a tick on it when it reaches the mexico border it will be turned back, and if AR groups care so much about the population of horses why do they hang around sale barns,so call rescue 20 year old lame or blind horses that have no value or quality of life and then ask for donations to care for this horse before they even get it home.Why don’t they just let the animal go to slaughter then they might have room to take in other horses that actualy need rescued that do have quality of life left.

    • Suzanne says:

      Another miss, okie. Didn’t you hear about the horses in the feed lot in Presidio, TX? Not a single one had a valid Coggins test. The drivers/sellers were using the same tests over and over with each new load of horses. If the operation hadn’t been reported for cruelty and investigated, these horses would’ve gone right across the border just like all the ones before them with these self-same Coggins papers.

      Horse slaughter is NOT like traditional animal-ag! It’s a below the radar, no questions asked, sleazy, predatory – many of these horses are stolen remember – operation filled with criminals who care about nothing except profit.

    • Beverly Levitt says:

      To say old, lame, blind, etc., horses have no purpose is a completely ridiculous statement and one that only someone who does nothing to save equine would say. I run a rescue and sanctuary. I have many senior horses, some lame, some with vision problems, some thoroughbreds so run down from breeding and then were scheduled to be destroyed because they could no longer produce and line wallets. Every last one of these horses since coming here, has served an important purpose and one that they enjoy. They interact with special needs, emotionally traumatized and at risk children. These horses have worked miracles with children that are simply amazing and something no human could do. So your statement is ignorant to say the least. No rescue I know, and I know a ton of them has ever claimed there aren’t abandoned horses or neglected ones. It is an issue that we not only deal with but do our part in helping with EVERY day. Most of us out of our own meager pockets. We clean up the mess while the irresponsible thoroughbred, quarter horse and other breeders continue to breed into infinity. I highly doubt the statistics you have given on breeding decreases. It meets none of the data I have quite recently researched and if printed by the breeding associations is most likely skewed to support their pro slaughter stance. One thing I’ve learned is the pro side is not for honesty and truths. Just to set the record straight our economy began tanking the end of 2006 with the housing industry. Something I am quite educated on because I worked in the industry. You see when your supply is more than your demand your market tanks. It did with housing because of greed and it has with horses because of greed. My biggest beef with the pro’s side is their inability to fight their battle with honest, conscise data. When you make insane statements saying slaughter is humane, when in fact it is well documented by our government that it wasn’t, isn’t and never has been, when you state our horse meat is safe for consumption, when in fact it is well documented across the GLOBE that it isn’t, wasn’t and never will be, when you throw out misinformation that the market tanked because of the closing of slaughter here, when in fact the numbers have not increased but remained steady, when you state that slaughter needs to be reopened here so neglected, starved and injured horses can go to slaughter, when in fact they are not acceptable for slaughter, when you don’t say the truth that 92% of the horses going to slaughter are SOUND, HEALTHY horses, the majority being breeder and racing throw aways, stolen horses or horses obtained with an owner not knowing this would be their fate, then you are in fact a very deceiving and dishonest industry. One that about 75% of the American people of this great Nation see through.

  6. LadyAlicorn says:

    Nancy, I don’t know where it is you live but I’m here to tell you the number are not only real but are most likely under the true numbers. And yes it is because of the closure, as it begain BEFORE the recession. I run a rescue and before the closures we would get in horses rehab them and get them home in less than a year. We always had room for more, but now we get them in and they stay. No-one wants them and yes the ression has it’s part but we see many cases that never see the press, or numbers, of horse left, shot, turned out, and just starved. I get call every single week of animls people don’t want any more with comments of “if you don’t come and get them we will shoot them”. When told to take them to auction we are told “we don’t have a trailer”- “why it costs more to take them and run them trough than we will get back”- “we did and NOONE bought them” and my favorite “we can’t afford the Vet to put them down and the fee to send them to the renderer” . Before the closure people took unwanted, yes sometimes for very minor issues to slaughter, and unlike this country, the meat which is high in omega 3 fatty acids was eaten. Not only by people but by animals as horse meat is sought after by zoo and rehabs for big cats. We, horsey people, may not like it but horses are livestock. They are raised in some places as a meat source a valued one. And yes slaughter reduces the numbers, and yes reducing breeding is the ideal solution, but what of the older horses and the lame, a quick death is what we all want for our friends. After they are gone, why should they rot in the ground or be sent to render, when they can feed something else. That is a better solution, and the kill buyers are NOT buying these horses anymore, as like mentioned above there are so many horses showing up at the boarders that they are not taking anything but the best, ie: the unwanted race horses, the money losers, the lame show horse in other words the ones that were the majority before. Sening to render or sending to slaughter is really the same, and in our area you can not bury them as in a lot of places so which is worse? Have you ever seen a Euthinasia go bad because the horse is comprmized I have and it is horrible for everyone conserned, when it could have been avoided. Blanket statments about slaughter being bad and only bad peope do it, are wrong there are many reasons slaughter houses are prefered and many vets agree and would tell peole to send/take their horse to slaughter rather than have them “put them down”.

    • Jan Myers says:

      I am a “horsey” person and I do not want my horse or anyones horse having to go through the slaughter pipeline for one reason…It is not a quick death. It is a horrific one from the time they step on that trailor bound for Mexico or Canada (just as it was here in the US) right up until the captive bolt to the head, I should say many captive bolts more often than not or shot with a 22 several times in the face before they go down. (Not humane in any way shape or form and I do not care what the AVMA says..there are a lot of vets that disagree with them. Ending slaughter would force people to be more responsible in their choices. It would end the cycle of breed, cull, slaughter, repeat.

      As for what are we going to do with all the homeless horses on the ground right now….I have one suggestion. All the money that proslaughter people are spending trying to bring back domestic slaughter would start up a lot more rescues, enable no cost euthansia clinics and pay for the burial, gelding clinics, hay banks, all kinds of humane solution for the cast offs created by people choose to ignore their responsibilties that reside in their pastures.

      What kills me is that Sue Wallis and Dave Duquettes’s “United Horsemen” are a 501c3…a charity. I’d like to know how they slid that one through the doors…Unbelievable that you can get 501c3 status to kill horses…Someone must be asleep at the wheel. What is the world coming to? I always thought charitable organizations were supposed to lift up those they champion,not tortue and kill them. I may have to look in to a lawsuit for emotional duress…

      • Cowhorse says:

        But Jan, if you are such a horse person, where in your scenario do you restart the horse industry? Where do you provide a sensible and realistic (not the same flap trap that has no solution) solution to the BLM horses? Who is going to support the horses that are crippled, sick, or non-recoverable in some form? If they can’t pay their way in use, many people can’t be expected to simply pay out for sometimes decades on an unusable pasture ornament. Hard to imagine, but there are still plenty of people who USE their horses, they don’t want nor can they afford the fuzzy pony to go out and pet on once in a while.

        Anyone who is anti-slaughter should step up to the plate and buy, at a reasonable price, all of the horses that should be shipped to slaughter. Don’t go asking other people to donate and pay your way, if you make a decision to conciously eliminate industry options, then you (meaning anyone) should be financially responsible for them. You cannot dictate blindly, because then you merely become part of the problem.

      • Barbara says:

        Cowhorse: Geez…same old solution from you people. WE should buy up all the lost horses! Why? We have our horses and take care of them, PLUS donate funds to rescue groups, etc. What are you doing? We certainly have done our share with no payoff in sight. Not so for the irresponsible breeders and pro-slaughter people. I have seen SOME cattle ranchers in favor of slaughter ONLY because they want more land for their cattle. No other reason — yet another payoff at the expense of our horses. And to those who still say that horses are “livestock”, not pets, I believe that I’ve already acknowledged that fact based on outdated zoning laws. No has said that they are NOT LIVESTOCK. Read the posts before making inane comments. If I choose to keep my “livestock” as pets or companion animals, it’s my business.

      • Barbara says:

        As for BLM horse and burros, do your research please. It costs our government far more money to round up these animals than to leave them alone! Watch some of the videos of the BLM roundups and tell me that they are humane. Takes a big man to run down a foal with a helicopter to the point of exhaustion!! Who is asking our gov’t to do this? Hmmmm…. The ranchers are complaining that the horses eat too much and don’t leave enough for their cattle. Those same ranchers are killing off all predators. Gee…ya think there’s a connection between no predators and what they see as “too many” feral horses?

      • Jan Myers says:

        Cowhorse…I must tell you how much you amuse me. I certainly wish you guys would come up with something else in rebuttal..It get rather tedious But it would be rude of me to ignore you so here goes:

        Cowhorse says:
        “September 19, 2011 at 5:28 pm But Jan, if you are such a horse person, where in your scenario do you restart the horse industry?”

        What is yours besides slaughter them all…give every person an out for their responsibility. WTH? I already donate more than I can afford as well as keep my horse in awesome shape, not easy being unemployed since last November…All the while contributing to the local Ag economy in a big way with my LIVE horse.

        IF the entire horse community comes together we can fix just about anything. As soon as we get the slaughter option off the table we will have more money and resources. BUT it will take people like you to help as WE are helping. It takes a village to use a slogan borrowed from Senator Clinton. We can do it ! !

        “Where do you provide a sensible and realistic (not the same flap trap that has no solution) solution to the BLM horses?”

        See previous comment. I don’t like redundancy (look it up. LOL)

        “Who is going to support the horses that are crippled, sick, or non-recoverable in some form?”

        Lots of people are willing to support these animals. With more and more joining their ranks everyday! In addition see first comment. Like I said redundancy irritates me.

        “If they can’t pay their way in use, many people can’t be expected to simply pay out for sometimes decades on an unusable pasture ornament. Hard to imagine, but there are still plenty of people who USE their horses, they don’t want nor can they afford the fuzzy pony to go out and pet on once in a while.”

        a) Find it a new home. b) Humanely euthanize it C) Show a little respect for an animal that has served you well and let it retire with you…I know that part is hard for you to grasp Cowhorse but Gee it would be the compassionate thing to do!

        “Anyone who is anti-slaughter should step up to the plate and buy, at a reasonable price, all of the horses that should be shipped to slaughter.”

        OK I’ll be redundant here since you have to be so irrational….WE anti-horse slaughter people ALREADY do a lot for homeless, abused and neglected horses and will continue to help long after this issue is dead in the water….We are committed to righting the wrong people like you have done to them.

        “Don’t go asking other people to donate and pay your way, if you make a decision to conciously eliminate industry options, then you (meaning anyone) should be financially responsible for them. You cannot dictate blindly, because then you merely become part of the problem.”

        It is called MORAL RESPONSIBILITY Cowhorse and everyone in the horse community should step up to the plate and help all they can…God what the right people could do to help if every single one of us (horse owners) would commit to even as little as ten dollars a month to go to a fund for helping people foster in place, hay banks, euthanasia clinics, help with burial, cremation, help with medical cost at least until the economy recovered and the horse market picks back up.

        The horse market is no different than any other enterprise. You HAVE to be able to weather the changes or you end up failing. Happened to my dad. He was not flexible enough and he went down the tubes. So you see (Bleep, happens and you either change or you lose. No one to blame but yourself.

    • Suzanne says:

      So, why aren’t they still sending them to slaughter? Why? It’s just as available as it ever was, so, why are they not using it? It makes NO sense to blame the lack of slaughter option when there never was a lack of the slaughter option.

      Can they not sell them even to the killers? That would indicate that the slaughter market is at capacity. Slaughter is driven by demand, not by how many horses are available. You can’t sell more of anything than the market will bear. Simple economics.

      • daphne watson says:

        have you ever wondered because just maybe the owners of those horses want their horses to be KILLED humanley like they were in the states,NOT STABBED OVER AND OVER AGAIN.

      • Suzanne says:

        This is to Daphne Watson who missed the point of my entire post. My point was that these people do not take “advantage” of the “slaughter option” because they DON’T want their horses to go to slaughter even if they can’t afford to keep them any more.

        This is the HUGE problem with having slaughter around – no horse is safe. You can’t even sell your horse to what seems like a reputable person, because the kill buyers are masters of misrepresentation. They’ve even been known to bring children along and claim they want the seller’s horse for that child, and then go right to the slaughter plant.

        It’s a continual nightmare for those of us who do not want our horses to end up in a kill box. In spite of the fact that horses used to be livestock, that is no longer true. MOST horses these days belong to people who think of them as companion animals – pets, best friends, family members. Just because they don’t live in the house if quite irrelevant. They ARE companion animals to those of us who feel that way about them. Even the FDA considers them companion animals and, in their veterinary section, group horses with dogs and cats. That’s why the FDA doesn’t regulate them as food animals – because they are not food animals.

      • Barbara says:

        Daphne: “KILLED HUMANELY like they were in the states”? Are you frickin kidding me? Have you not read any of the reports of the horrible conditions in Florida and Illinois plants (and others) where the treatment of horses was no less cruel and inhumane as it is now? What the hell do you read? Oh, that’s right…your head is so far up Slaughterhouse Sue’s ass that you only read what she sees out of her eyes! The pain and suffering continues to exist in Canada and, of course, Mexico, even though Wallis and her cronies insist that they’ve visited the plants. They are lying once again. They never saw a “kill”! And do you really believe that the plant in Canada was operating “as usual” knowing that visitors were coming? Get real! These videos that abound are not just about plants in Mexico! Wake the hell up! I’m so sick of all of you — none of you have given any alternatives to the pain and suffering. How can you continue to allow this abuse to go on?

  7. “Poorly bred horses can result in anatomical defects that can dramatically hinder quality of life or even result in a shortened lifespan. Poor conformation is the result of bad genes, stressful living conditions and poor diet. All too often conformation is overlooked in favor of color, and the result can be detrimental to the health of the horse. A horse with conformational defects is very likely to pass those defects along to offspring, limiting the animal’s appeal to future buyers.”

    Many of the horses in rescues today have health and/or confrontational flaws which require spenditures in additional to “general maintenance” of a horse. By opening the slaughter houses we are allowed an outlet for lower quality animals to be disposed of, thus creating a home for a horse who will thrive.

    We at United Horseman believe wholeheartedly in this statement: http://www.facebook.com/groups/unitedhorsemen/

    • Brenda Lee says:

      The stats have reported repeatedly that 92% of the horses that end up at slaughter, ARE young, HEALTHY and usable equine. As, is for all the ex race horses, the PMU Mares, and their foals, not to mention the NURSE MARE, foals. The ARE very much anatomically correct, and their confirmations are admired by many. As, also would be to their pedigrees. They have pedigrees, that are better than mine or yours. We are just mutts, most of us. Slaughter knows no bounds.

      Once again, your statements are falsely represented, and are only mere opinions of a clearly, distortion and recall of the truth. This is strictly your opinion, about the horses that NEED to go to slaughter.

    • Jan Myers says:

      Here is a FB page for all that can think outside of the box….We can solve the horse industry problems IF we all work together for a humane solution…NOT a greed driven inhumane solution!

      http://www.facebook.com/#!/groups/CelebrateTheHorseNetwork/

    • Suzanne says:

      You don’t make any more sense here than you do on Facebook, Jamie. Don’t you wonder where all the poorly conformed horses are coming from? How about profligate breeding, going for quantity instead of quality? If the BIG “factory” breeders like the AQHA would just do that much it would solve two problems at once.

      Beside that, horses that aren’t well enough conformed to be performance horses can still make wonderful family horses. If they are in such bad shape they can’t even do that, perhaps humane euthanasia would be the best choice. And DEFINITELY don’t use them to breed more!

  8. Barbara says:

    Billie Welty: Nancy’s points are absolutely valid. The economy and overbreeding have caused the problem, not closure of the kill plants. I have read at least three studies that show no correlation between the plants being closed and the numbers of abandoned and/or starving horses. In fact, in California alone, the numbers have actually decreased since closing the plants! And, all reports show that the number of horses being killed has not diminished. This is propaganda from the pro-slaughter people who want to line their pockets and continue breeding while dumping horses that are not “perfect”. Horse meat is toxic, yet pro-slaughter people want to feed it to our kids in school lunches or provide it to soup kitchens! Canada and Mexico ship this toxic meat to Europe and Asia where there is a huge market for horse meat; however, it was banned for use in pet food as far back as the 1970s! What does that tell you? Slaughter is inhumane and the treatment of these horses is atrocious. Just watch some of the videos taken at the Mexico slaughter houses. Pro-slaughter people claim these to be “fake” — those horses must be darned good actors!! Some advocates claim to have visited the kill plant in Canada and “all was perfectly appropriate”. What they have said is that they NEVER witnessed any horse kills there. There were escorted through a plant after having announced their arrival and saw nothing of what really goes on. Wake up! Stop killing anything and everything simply because breeders won’t act responsibly!

  9. Barbara says:

    Correction: Regarding visiting the kill plant in Canada: “…what they have NOT said, is that they NEVER witnessed a kill….”

  10. vicki says:

    Slaughter is for food production. It is not the place to send excess or “unwanted” animals of any species. Food animals must be raised as such from birth. If there is such a callous disregard for food production and food safety with our horses, one can only imagine why there have been so many recalls with our acceptable food sources that are supposedly raised and regulated as food animals.

  11. Shelia says:

    Vicki, as you know, Cavel did close for several weeks before they where granted their temporary stay for the appeal which they lost. As you say on your own website,”March 29, 2007- A federal district court ordered the U.S. Department of Agriculture to stop inspecting horses about to be slaughtered at the Cavel International slaughter plant, effectively closing the last operating horse slaughtering operation in the United States. The order was stayed pending appeal, allowing Cavel to temporarily reopen.” Cavel was closed down and when they did reopen for a short time during the appeal, they were operating on a limited bases because as you pointed out, they were already transferring operations to Canada.

    You are also ignoring the Texas closures. Even before Illinois banned slaughter in that state, horses were being shipped enmass to Mexico & Canada. Even if Cavel had remained open, there was no way that they could have serviced 100,000+ horses a year.

    I still noticed that you are not addressing the issue of unwanted horses-the ones being abandoned or starving in pastures. And closing the processors here in the US has not stopped the slaughter market, you have only made these horses have to endure long trailor rides to Canada & Mexico.

    • LadyAlicorn says:

      Wow, so instead of them helping solve the issue they want to argue dates? And the shipping is very stressful as they are not in the comfortable slant load trailer, but often loaded in cattle trucks. If you care at all for horses then you “THEY” need to help come up with answers. If you don’t like this one come up with a better one!
      Shelia, thanks for standing strong.

      • Barbara says:

        Shelia (spelled incorrectly?) and LadyAlicorn: your logic is circular. If there are so many abandoned and starving, why aren’t the owners selling them to the killers for slaughter to be taken to Canada and Mexico? We are still killing 100,000 a year — that number has not changed. The solution, you asked, is to STOP BREEDING! This is the same solution for the millions of dogs and cats that are euthanized every year — yet so many irresponsible pet owners still don’t “get it”! This is about money; it’s not about saving the horse “industry” except for that part of the industry that breeds.

      • vicki says:

        When you are using incorrect information to support a position, should we just ignore it?

        Yes, you are correct about the cattle cars but unfortunately, slaughter proponents like Sue Wallis are against banning double deckers. So much for making changes to make the process more humane.

      • Suzanne says:

        As I have said a hundred times, LadyAlcorn, the horses were ALWAYS shipped long distances – including Mexico and Canada – in double decker cattle trucks – always.

        I have hundreds of pictures that were obtained on an FOIA request from the USDA pertaining to violations in transport to Beltex in Ft. Worth, TX from Jan. 1 to Nov. 17, 2005. These pictures are not for the faint-hearted, believe me. Try going to kaufmanzoning.com sometime and see what the town of Kaufman, TX went through with these plants in their town.

    • vicki says:

      Sheila, they were shut down from June 28 to July 18 so it still doesn’t fit the timeframe. Actually, they slaughtered more horses per week during the appeal than at any other time. They normally slaughtered approx. 500 per week and they were pushing 1,000 every week during the appeal so they more than made up for the time they were closed.

      The horses were enduring the long hauls when the plants were open so that is not a valid argument. According to the USDA, 775,474 horses were exported from 1989-2006 during the time the slaughter plants were open so having plants on US soil does not stop the hauls across the borders. Nor does it shorten the hauls across country.

      Do you have police or state reports for what you stated in your post? If you google Deleting the Fiction, you’ll see the so called abandonments that the propaganda machine was pumping out immediately after the plants closed. We have the documented police responses and officials we spoke with. Almost all were false. When Butcher was complaining about the abandonments in MT, the Montana horse coalition called every county and again, more false information. They all said no more than in any other year. We are hearing from owners they are abandoning their animals because they are afraid to sell them for fear they will end up on a slaughter truck. As to the number that fall into that category, I don’t know.

      Being an “unwanted” horse does not make them a food animal. If they weren’t raised and regulated from birth as a food animal, they should not be going to slaughter. Those are the EU [and FDA] food safety laws. The EU report released in April of this year revealed banned substances in US horses and falsified paperwork accompanying the horses stating they were drug free. I hope the same disregard for food safety isn’t being practiced with our acceptable food sources.

    • Suzanne says:

      Sheila, again I don’t get your point. What’s with all the arguing with Vicki about when Caval did or did not close? And in what way is she “ignoring” the plants in Texas? We ALWAYS shipped thousands of horses to slaughter in Canada and Mexico even while our three were in full operation. Also, the US is a huge piece of land. Horses always were shipped long distances without food and water. There are lots of places that are closer to El Paso than to Ft. Worth or Kaufman. And don’t tell me Wyoming isn’t closer to Alberta than even Illinois, let alone Texas. The distance issue is just another piece of propaganda. I didn’t hear anyone worrying about horses shipping long distances BEFORE our plants shut down.

      As for “unwanted” horses – two comments. The most obvious is that if slaughter were the answer to population control, we wouldn’t still have “excess” horses, now would we? The NUMBER of slaughtered horses remains the SAME and where the plants are located is totally irrelevant.

      If all the pro-slaughter groups would spend even HALF the money they spend lobbying DC to keep slaughter going to help homeless horses, there wouldn’t ever be a problem.

      • daphne watson says:

        think about it. a yr before the slaughter houses closed you could SELL a good bred, broke , reg. horse for over 2500.00. as soon as the houses closed that same horse can’t be sold for 300.00. do you get it know? the slaughter houses SET THE BOTTOM DOLLAR for horses, no slaughter houses, no bottom dollar, just because horses are still being slaughtered OUTSIDE of the states, doesn’t mean crap. THERE IS NOT bottom dollar for horses, why because kill buyers can’t spend 300.00 to 800.00 on one horse and make any money, becuase it cost more to ship said horse to mexico or canada. NOW i bet you if the houses were back open in the states, the dollar of the horse will come back up and that horse can be sold again for what he is worth.

      • Suzanne says:

        Daphne ~ The bottom fell our because of the RECESSION. The bottom fell out of everything. People’s houses fell so low they can’t sell them for enough to pay off what they still own on their mortgage. You blame that on the closing of the domestic slaughter plants? Every producer saw the bottom fall out from under them. Some of you horse breeders are the only producers I ever saw who expected to be propped up with a salvage operation that PAYS THEM. GEEZ!

  12. Barbara says:

    Vicki: Agree. Shelia: Since we have continued to kill 100,000 horses, your argument is not logical. The problem then is NOT closing the plants but overbreeding! Obviously, if you eliminate the same number of horses as before, there should be the same number remaining. The economy and overbreeding are driving the current situation. Studies have shown that there is no more starvation and abandonment than before the plants were closed! In fact, the numbers in California have decreased. The argument from the pro-slaughter people is false logic and study after study have proven them wrong. In addition, aside from the USDA not inspecting the horses, some plants were actually closed because of violations of NEPA and they cannot be opened until those violations are resolved and the necessary environmental impact studies are conducted and presented for public review and comment.

  13. Brenda Lee says:

    What I’m dieing to ask is??? Why are the only two options, are starving, or slaughter? That has been the theme of Pro-Slaughter people for a long long time, why is that?

  14. Brenda Lee says:

    Trinity Lakes Ranch
    https://www.facebook.com/groups/187930951278235/doc/190897464314917/….. This a list of Stallions and owners who have donated breeding’s to their stallions to our effort to raise money to bring hay to the Wildfire victims in Texas. We hope you can support this effort by bidding on these breeding’s. The bid is also tax deductible

    Here’s your real problem. This is one of your buddies, Philip Kasharis, right? He’s what fundraising for horse out in Bastrop TX, and yet storing all the hay and 2 tons of pellets in his barn, right?

    So, we breed more horses, that can go to slaughter as healthy two years old, because someone now can’t feed them. Do you think maybe on a down market, you might STOP BREEDING FOR JUST A BIT. Give the market a chance to recover. As I’ve always said, what would you think of a Developer that continues to Build MORE houses on a down market? Hard to have empathy for that person, isn’t it. Not to mention we might want to question the IQ of that person, or their motives. What are your motives in all of this?

    The problem is economy, as is for any other industry right now, don’t ya think? Then there is the OVER Breeding, then there is the UN accountability for this BAD BUSINESS DECISION. I’m guessing they just don’t know how to make a living any other way? So, they keep breeding, and the cycle goes on and on and on.

    • Jan Myers says:

      Sue Wallis and the United Horsemen are supporting this idiocy….I was in the group that was started to help the horses and people devasated by the wild fires but not anymore….Not once I saw this ! ! ! It is incredulous to me that these people see NOTHING wrong in what they are doing? HELLO…We currently have a huge surplus of horses and you are wanting to raise money by putting more on the ground…. WTH?????

    • daphne watson says:

      BRENDA- i know you are like this, and at the same time a good person. IF you would LOOK at the names of these stallions they are TOP NOTCH TOP OF THE LINE CHAMPIONS that will pass on their gentics to their foals. MANY ppl who have TOP mares can’t afford to pay the normal sutd fees, BUT can afford horses, so This is a step for them to try and win a bid . I could NOT afford the breeding to the dash for cash stud and I bid on him at an auction and won that breeding paying over 700 LESS then what his normal fee is. I won him for 100.00 his normal fee 800.00
      This is a good thing and you are shooting it down. This is just not willy nilly breeding to willy nilly horses, these STUDS are TOP NOTCH congress, world CHAMPIONS that ANYONE with a mare would be PROUD to breed to to get ONE HELL OF A FOAL.

      • Jan Myers says:

        Daphne, I have to ask you….if you could never afford the 800.00 breeding fee, I would bet that the mare you are going to breed him to is not all that great….Mares have a lot more to do with the outcome of the foal that the stallion does. A fact that most people blindly overlook just so they can say the foal is sired by a big name….YES it is wrong to try to raise money for one sad situation by making another sad situation worse. What about donating just because it is the “RIGHT” thing to do? Why must there be a prize attached to it? A sad commentary of what our world has become.

      • daphne watson says:

        my mare is WAY worthy to breed. She has TOP NOTCH blood lines, is a reg. qh, IS a money earner in barrel racings, money earner in rodeos, she is just NOT a run of the mill mare and I WOULD NOT bred her IF she was not worthy to be bred. I don’t look at the price of the stud fee, i look at the stud to compare to my mare. My mare has NO confo flaws, has a wonderful dispo. I own a breeding farm, I have a degree in breeding, and know what im doing. HEll I have turned away many mares who want to be bred to my stud,,WHY because they are CRAP.
        My mare is being bred to a hell of a stud who has earned money in aqha, and other associations, is a son of dash for cash and a hell of a barrel horse. he completents her .
        and even though this is a stud action they are only listed at half of their normal fees, so if one is 2500 then he lists at 1500 still a pretty peeny you are NOT going to get nasty mares getting bred to these studs, you are gonna have top of the notch mares.
        I know what im doing when it comes to breeding horses, chosing studs, etc. This stud i got at the benefit auction i have researched for 2 yrs before and was planning on talking to the owner but when it came up in auction i was tickled.

        Some ppl who breed , breed to keep the foal no matter what , when bred to these TOP NOTCH studs you will rarely see them in sales. unless its a TOP NOTCH sale .

    • Becca says:

      Wow….so we live about 35 miles from the Bastrop fire, and about 6 from the Dripping Springs fire. How dare you bash anyone who is doing something to help families- some of whom are friends of ours- who lost everything they own? Trinity has offered housing for displaced animals- which, btw, there is not even an accurate count of yet as there as so many. Get off your high horse- these are worthy stallions whose owners are willing to forgo profit- even in this pathetic economy to show human decency. You went too far in bashing this one. Learn about human decency before preaching to me, thanks.

      • Jan Myers says:

        Hmmmmmm High Horse….really???? If that is the case maybe you should try to climb up here sometime. It is much better than slumming with the pros ! ! !

      • Suzanne says:

        Becca, if no one can afford to purchase a horse, what does it matter what the quality of the blood lines are? Unless you plan to keep the foal yourself, it just doesn’t make sense to breed until the economy recovers.

        Of course, it a situation like this, one of you pros would jump all over one of us and scream why are you producing another foal instead of adopting one of the “unwanted” horses, you Hypocritical Bleeding Heart! Oh well.

    • Cindy Barton says:

      Thank you Brenda Lee for bring this out in the open, juding by some of the response’s on here, you have gotten several good examples of the excuse, that its ok for “top Notch Horses” to breed. Every horse is a top notch animal. Selective breeding is just an excuse and then more horses go in the pipeline and then the numbers increase and the only answer Pro Slaughter’s come up with is send them to the plant, and blast everywhere “there to many horses get rid of the less than “Top Notch” ones!” What happens when some of these horses are not “Top Notch” where will they go? Odds are some will be! If it were left up to you people only the rich would have horses! I’m not financialy able, nor do I want a “Top Notch”, I love my under qualified, not registered, half breeds that are cut and old! Of all the answeres to give to validate this ridicoulas auction in this economy, isn’t that another reason for all the “unwanted” horses? That one is beautiful!!!

      • Cowhorse says:

        Cindy – did you really just attempt to cut down people who are breeding top notch mares to some of the best stallions in their discipline? Really? You said yourself you have an underqualified horse, a whole lot of people can’t just carry an underqualified horse because you don’t have a job for it to do.

        So you bash breeders, but nowhere did your radar even pick up on the feral BLM horses! Hello……. Hypocrit much? You think its acceptable to attack people who’ve learned more about genetic predisposition than most people even can comprehend and yet its okay for thousands upon thousands of BLM horses to just stand in a feedlot, literally gobbling up money in the form of feed. There you have it, the #1 advertisement for limiting breeding – the feral horse!

        And then to top it off, you attack this particular stallion service auction for raising money for victims of the wildfires in Texas? Really?? So, because you’re full of such high standards, if you and your horses had been displaced, you wouldn’t accept any feed or assistance from these folks because you don’t believe in how the money was raised. Is that right? You’d decline the assistance, pardon me for believing you’d have both hands out taking what you could get.

      • daphne watson says:

        TOP NOTCh means the horse is a CHAMPION and PROVEN. not just your run of the mill horse. TOP NOTCH NOT all horses are top notch horses.

      • Becca says:

        Cindy- you are living in dreamland.not all horses are topnotch. What world championship titles do your horses hold? What genetic soundness do they have that are desirable for breeding? What is their longevity for holding up to a performance event? We have 2 old broke down geldings that we adore- but they are geldings because they are not genetically superior, and we are honest and realistic enough to recognize that. Breeding every horse results in HYPP, parrot mouth, kidney malformations, skin disorders that cause intense pain- what kind of horse lover could possibly endorse these genetic issues?

      • Suzanne says:

        This in not to Cindy – it’s to those who missed the entire point of her post. Another horse is another horse. Not ALL top notch/Top notch breedings produce Top notch get. Then what? Send the less-than-top-notch to slaughter?

        Any of you old enough to remember the Arabian Bubble? It was quite a few years ago now – probably early 70s or so. Arabians were the RAGE and were selling for fantastic prices, especially at the Scottsdale sale. Then the bubble burst, and some people heavily invested in Arabs literally lost everything. I remember because former Texas governor John Conally was one of them.

        Prices go up and they come down, whether we’re in a recession or not. It’s called supply and demand. These were top notch horses – you better believe it! But, they became a glut on that niche market, and the price you could get for them tanked as well. BLEEP happens, and it doesn’t have anything to do with where the slaughter plants are.

  15. Diana B says:

    If horse slaughter were to re-open in this country it won’t solve your problems the way you think it will. The major purchasers of horse meat are changing the rules for what they will accept as the world becomes more aware of food safety issues. EU is moving quickly to an all passport system. Canada is trying to implement EID tracking of all horses from birth with vets recording treatments in a centralized database.

    If horse slaughter were to be allowed again, some businessman would open a plant and start working to make the highest profit possible to pay back his investment. He would find the highest paying markets for the meat and work towards qualifying for their standards. As he tightened the standards on his supply, he would have to raise the price paid for the horses to fill the market.

    With a good price paid for food horses some REAL livestock producers would move away from cattle and to horse production and do it right for the food chain. Top livestock producers are familiar with following drug protocols and getting third party verification to prove the safety of the product they raise. They would breed for meat quality, fast growth and superior health so they could raise the horses drug free. Any horses that had to be medicated would be removed from the food chain and turned over to a trainer to get salvage value as a potential riding horse. If you think your old, lame, skinny, can’t-sell-them-anywhere-else horses are going to find an outlet in the food supply think again.

    The world of food production had changed in the last decade and horse meat producers are playing catch up. Food safety and verification are becoming very important. We are quickly moving to a time when many food products can be traced to the producer who raised them. Europe is ahead of the US in this aspect. While some horse meat in Europe traces to the breeder who raised it, American slaughter horses are still getting in through false documentation via the kill buyer.

    American livestock producers are capable of producing food quality horses, and if the price is right some of them will. The food horse rejects will be competing with your “unwanted horses” for a new homes, and all will be competing for the same feed supply.

    Don’t kid yourself about horse slaughter solving your problems, it will only add to them.

  16. okiestorm1 says:

    Brenda lee, what exactly have you done to help the wildfire victems,, Diana,,There are no cattle ranchers that will give up thier cattle operation to run a horse operation for slaughter! I see all the AR post on here and have to wonder how much money have they actualy gave or how much time they have actualy put in to help animals, HSUS talks alot also, they get all these laws passed and then they walk away, they don’t spend money they take in to help the animals they leave that for everyone else.Like most theses equine rescues, they want to save the horses, they just want everyone else to pay for it. Open the equine slaughter plants back up!!!!!

    • Brenda Lee says:

      @Okiestorm 1, let me count the ways. Lets see, I have gone and visited the site, and location, several times. During my visit, I have feed, clean stalls, and water down the sand arean, so as to not be eating dirt, everytime you open your mouth. I have taken quit a few pictures, and shared and posted them. I did ask that Trinity Lake Ranch, NOT us my picture for their fundraising… Feel free to check. I have advertise, and posted all known and legit, donation and drop off sites… I worked with the LOCAL Feed store to set up fundrasing accounts. These accouts would then go DIRECTLY to the Equine here, in Elgin and Bastrop Tx. Bluebonnet Equine Humane Society, stepped up and offered to assist, and to provide a non-profit, account for those donations. I am the boots on the ground, that Sue Wallis, so falsely advertised in her campaign, to support Wild Fire Equine Refuge. She stated that she so feverishly worked, so hard to put all of this together. And that they had boots on the ground.. She really is a politician, isn’t she? Any thing else?

    • Diana B says:

      okiestorm1 (or can I call you Billie Welty?) You don’t know who you are talking to here. I don’t see any ARs posting. The anti horse slaughter posts on here are all from horse owners and professionals who don’t approve of slaughter for the animals that don’t work out.

      And what makes you think livestock producers won’t move from cattle to horses if that is where the profit is? Many cattle breeders today were hog breeders in the past before the profit was taken out of that segment. It only takes one or two trying it and talking about the success to get a move in a new direction. Ranchers are all about making a living off the land, whatever it takes.

  17. okiestorm1 says:

    Heres an idea, every abandoned,starveing horse we come across, we will bring them to the AR groups and let you all care for them with your own money no donations but out of your own pocket.You all say there is no need for slaughter, ok then you take care of these animals,those of you reading this that cannot care for your animals anylonger i suggest you give them to these people or take them to Pacelles front yard for him to care for.

    • Brenda Lee says:

      @Okiestorm 1. The rescue do, already clean up somebody’s’ else mess and UN accountability. So, what if people want and need to donate. What is your problem with that, your NOT donating, or taking care of them. What’s it to you? Oh, yeah right… you want to be able to sell, and profit from the Slaughter Pipeline.

      I find it quite interesting that people of your kind (that’s yous guys terminology ) anyway. I find it interesting, that Yous guys, never speak of the horrific way in which this is done. From the time you decide to send them to slaughter, until they are meat on your plate.. Why is that? Since you are such wonderful Horsemen and women. Your such staunch christians types, and your just saving these horses from a worse fate. Why don’t you respond in detail, about the journey you put these horses on, from the time you drop them off at the auction Houses.. Once, of your kind, once reported in a post, that they loved their horses, as being one of their family members, and yet in the same breath, said they would send them to slaughter. God, I’m glad I’m not one of their relatives. Let here it, big boy or big girl, the details of their last days on this earth. Since you don’t have the guts to use your real name?

    • Suzanne says:

      Here’s an even better idea! How about the folks who BRED these horses OR the owner who dumped them take care of them? Huh? Seem reasonable? It’s the irresponsibility of THESE breeders and THESE owners to take care of these horses. Period. Neglecting horses is a crime that needs to be prosecuted. And don’t give me that “can’t afford” whine. Many times what one can and can’t afford is a matter of preference, not absolute ability.

      There are some real cases, of course, but I doubt these people would just dump their horses without trying. The rescues around here are NOT full, so there isn’t any excuse. All one has to do is ask.

      People do the same thing with dogs and especially cats. That’s why I’ve sometimes had upwards of 30 cats living in my barn. I guess they come down from the sky, huh? Around here it doesn’t rain so much cats and dogs as just cats.

      • daphne watson says:

        Its called a business. You breed a horse to make a better horse, or improve your lines. I have a mare that I will be breed in march of 2012, her foal will be kept, I will bred another mare in march of 2012, why because the foal is allready SOLD. its called a business. NOT all breeders or owners KEEP said horse or foal for LIFE. it has nothing to do with taking responisbility of it, they take care of it, and if the right person comes along with the right amount of money, that horse or foal gets sold.
        My hubby is PISSED at me right now, because I will NOT be selling a sunfrost granddaughter to a roper friend of ours for 15,000. I REFUSE, why, because i know she will take us far. MONEY< CHAMPIOMSHIPS. most ppl are in it for the winnings, the adreline rush of getting that check, etc. NOT all horse owners keep their horses for life.

      • Barbara says:

        Oh, Daphne, you continue to be a supporter of our side each time you open your mouth. You have a buyer who will pay $15,000 for one of your foals. What was it you were saying about a depressed market? Doesn’t seem depressed in your case, now does it?! You are selling your horses. So, your argument about closing the slaughter houses hurting your business isn’t sound! We are still killing the same number of horses now as before the plants closed. What do you not get about that equation?

        What about your buyer who may not be able to afford the upkeep at some point? This is what we’re talking about by being responsible breeders. Not that YOU can’t sell your horse but that the buyer can’t afford to keep it and must sell it or give it away. And with many wonderful top-notch horses out there who can’t be taken care of, that’s the “glut” of horses from this business. Yes, it’s business but just as every business in America is suffering right now, the horse business is not exempt. You have, once again, proven our point! Keep talking! We love it.

      • Suzanne says:

        Daphne, Daphne ~ Can’t you see the contradiction here? You claim it’s a business, just like any other business. BUT you expect to be provided with a salvage that pays YOU for your bad business decisions. Wow! Wouldn’t every producer love to have that!

        You have a business just like any other except when you want to be treated differently from every other producer. Right!

      • daphne watson says:

        have you all EVER noticed that aqha foal reg. are DOWN almost 50% . that there says alot. NOT ALL those big breeders are breeeding tons of horses, they are only breeding a select few. MYSELF i have had ONE foal in 2 years, and will not have any more until 2013 when i will have 2. in 2012 i will bred FIVE outside mares that are allready booked and those foals will be or can be double reg.
        Yes its a buisness, BUT its also something that horse owners LOVE, we LOVE to see that foal stand, train that foal at 2yrs be showing it at 3 and WINNING a check with that horse. Yep sometimes we sell them to someone who wants to win just like we did, OR we keep that horse. BUT DON”T EVER tell us that we do not TAKE care of our horses, and sell them as a way to get out of taking care of them.

    • Beverly Levitt says:

      okiestorm1….more Sue Wallis propaganda. First I’m not an AR nut job. I’m a farm girl who has raised beef, pork, chickens and crops most of my life. Second I’m a horse owner, a responsible one. Third I currently have 12 rescue horses here. You & slaughter house Sue are constantly throwing up that rescues take donations. Well guess what so does slaughter house Sue’s UH site. It’s a 501(c)3. That means it runs off charitable donations, though the legality of it remains in question when it sole purpose is to lobby horse slaughter. Charitable organizations are supposed to do good in our society, help those less fortunate whether man or animal. Slaughter hardly helps the horse, just the wallet of those behind it. Sue owns no horses yet she has created a company that will benefit her wallet if slaughter is allowed here again. That is what this is truly about….GREED and nothing more. It’s sure as hell not about horse welfare. So the same old lame game of you take the horses is just that lame. I support 90% of my rescue out of my own blasted pocket. The question is what do pro’s do for their welfare besides slit their throats and pocket the cash, while poisoning the globe?

      EVERY horse I have here was brought to me by owners who were terrified of their horses winding up in the slaughter pipeline. EVERY ONE of them, to include the original 11 that were dumped here. Some were in horrid condition, because the economy has destroyed lives and made people hang on thinking they could ride it out. There will always be neglected horses, but between the economy, over breeding out the yazoo and the threat of slaughter it is worse now.

      The Pro’s double talk on breeding really irks my backside. You all state the bottom is out on selling a good horse and then sit and brag about the good horses you are breeding. Why? If the bottom is out, responsibly you would cease breeding, like house builders ceased building the end of 2006. You would help the market by not flooding it with more horses. As always you folks talk out of both sides of your mouths, ignoring toxic reports, ignoring that 92% of the horses going to slaughter are sound, healthy & under 20 years of age.

      As for the market for slaughter, I’ve already figured out what you guys are up to. First our Federally protected Mustangs are your goal, so we the tax payer can continue to support the welfare ranchers who have NO right to our Mustangs lands and second the China market, where they could care less who they poison in their population.

      Lastly I’ve heard all of the jargon about it being you pro’s Constitutional right to do what you want with your horse. There are laws on our books for animal cruelty. Our laws plainly state for equine, cattle, etc., that it is a ONE strike, left insensible. This doesn’t happen with horse slaughter. Canada just got busted for ELEVEN strikes to a horse the other day. ELEVEN before the horse collapsed. It was literally whinnying. That is NOT insensible in ONE strike. A horse also regains consciouness in about 30 seconds. So by the time their throat is slit they are aware of bleeding to death. There are the FOIA reports done by OUR government that prove slaughter houses here were inhumane, but you guys chose to ignore this 900 page report. So is this your Constitutional right? I think not, as our Constitutional rights are not to written to be profit over cruelty. No where is it written and I assure you I’m not a liberal and carry a pocket Constitution with me when I leave my farm.

      Also the tripe about horses being eaten here through history is growing old. Yes, in the olden days when horses were our mode of transportation, some were eaten. We didn’t give them bute back then, and also had not the technology for food safety either. So in your minds because several decades back we ate horses, before we knew of the dangers of the meds they took, we should still do so. Pull your heads out of the sand.

      Instead of always trying to push your responsibilities as horse owners off on the rest of America, why don’t you get off your duffs and do something that will truly help our horses in need, instead of lining your wallets. You have never stopped sending them to slaughter, you’ve continued to profit and are salivating at the chance to butcher our Wild Mustangs, Burro’s and domestic horses as quickly as you can load them up. All the while still breeding that TOP NOTCH horse and then complaining the market is bottomed. Kind of hypocritical isn’t it? Mean while we continue to clean up your mess while you bash us for doing all we can and run a charitable 501(c) that does nothing to help the welfare of equine or global health.

      My wish is that folks over in Europe and Asia sue the pants off every one of you for the illness that your greed causes, especially to the innocent children. Don’t know how you folks sleep at night.

  18. Suzanne says:

    LadyAlicorn, I’d like to know the name of your “rescue” as I want to be sure that I NEVER send you a dime or assist you in any way shape or form. If a quick death is all you want for your “friends” then you need to find another answer as slaughter is never a quick death. I will give you credit for not calling it humane at least. If the kill buyers aren’t “buying the horses” anymore, if they’re only taking the cream of the crop and people can’t afford to send their horses to slaughter, then how in the world are all these starving, broken down, abandoned, suffering and tick ridden horses you whine about going to get to slaughter to be “saved”? Magic, perhaps? Maybe you’re genie and you can cross your arms and blink them to slaughter? Why not just blink them never born to begin with. ;) Rendering happens when the animals have been humanely put down and are already quite dead. Slaughter happens when they’re alive. So, it’s REALLY the same? Ya, ok…

    Do you slaughter activists hear yourselves? You mustn’t because your arguments make zero sense. If you have witnessed euthanasia gone bad; then might I suggest a different vet and some tranquilizers the next time? Who are all these vets that would send business away? I’ve never had a vet, after 40 yrs in the horse world, owning, training, and working with all breeds of horses; tell me that they would prefer if I didn’t use their services. Not one. I’ve euthanized dozens of animals, I’ve never seen it “go bad”…

    I also manage an equine rescue and protection program. I take in and place horses every day and don’t euthanize for space. I live in the Northeast and we simply don’t have the issues people out west are, allegedly, faced with. The market’s depressed, sure, but it’s still functioning quite well, honestly. The prices are a bit lower than they were at one time but I don’t drive down the street and find skeletal horses tied to trees. I can only assume it’s because we don’t have the same level of irresponsible breeding going on up here. Just like dogs and cats, horses are our companions, not food. Why should we seek to kill them just to ensure that we can make more? It’s ridiculous, truly ludicrous!! Pony millers be damned, why not look to where the industry is doing ok as a template for where you should be headed? Let’s see… Oh, I know!!! There’s no blood money with which to line your selfish pockets. Bingo!!!

    Jamie DeHart… I don’t even know what to say about your statement. “Poorly bred horses can result in anatomical defects that can dramatically hinder quality of life or even result in a shortened lifespan. Poor conformation is the result of bad genes, stressful living conditions and poor diet. All too often conformation is overlooked in favor of color, and the result can be detrimental to the health of the horse. A horse with conformational defects is very likely to pass those defects along to offspring, limiting the animal’s appeal to future buyers.” Yup. I will say, you’ve nailed down the insidious problem of clueless crazy color breeders who think a uterus and a penis are all that should be required in their efforts to make the next fabulous “cremello tovero with oviano tendancies… Good job. I can also tell you this; many of the horses in rescues today are perfectly normal, young, healthy, REGISTERED, horses that simply got bred into an unforgiving world by selfish people who don’t think. Then had the bad luck of falling into the hands of someone who thinks even less. I’m not entirely sure what a spenditure is, word can’t find it either, but I do know that my expenditures are generally on feed, hoof care and vaccines, that’s all. A little food, water, a refresher course under saddle, a new home, adopted and done. You see, we “save” emaciated horses by feeding them. Good thing, too, since kill buyers don’t even want them. Nice try though…

    The problem with the “we can’t afford it” argument that makes it so utterly ridiculous is that EVERY single possible thing that has to do with horses is EXPENSIVE. They aren’t cheap pets. They are luxury items. Nobody has the right to own them, it’s a privilege; an expensive privilege that often goes hand in hand with sacrifice – you know, if you’re a responsible owner. The very same people that “can’t afford” humane euthanasia probably have thousands of dollars worth of equipment lying all around their barns; why not sell it? If you can’t afford a horse, you don’t need it. The reason they don’t: Because it’s not so much that they can’t, it’s more that they don’t want to. After all, if they spend their money on humane euthanasia and disposal, how would they be able to buy that sweet cremello tovero with oviano tendacies? If they sell their tack, how would they be able to ride it into the ground?

    The equine industry needs a leg up. A complete overhaul is in order, in fact. It’s not going to happen if we keep doing what’s been done forever, it hasn’t worked yet; it won’t work going forward. It’s insane to keep doing the same thing over and over and expect a different result. Let’s stop the insanity. It’s time.

    • Brenda Lee says:

      This allows me to leave this conversation on a good note.. Suzanne, you are very articulate, and well spoken. Bravo!!!!! So all this bad conformation is who’s doing.. Must have been something they ate?, no wait, didn’t eat!

    • daphne watson says:

      you know suzanne I have seen the following horses get put down and GO BAD all with tranqs. all given by the best vets in ohio:
      my dads roping mare who sliced her artery in her leg, was given tranqs and then the injection she was so scared and fought she stood up and ran 100 yards before dieing, my sister gelding who broke his leg, he had to be sedated(fear of needless) and he still had to be given 2 injections and then still stood up and screamed, my hubby can STILL hear his scsreams and this was over 15 yrs ago, My gelding who died of epm 2 shots needed still fought, my rope mare who broke her leg had to be given 2 shots because she was fighting.

      EVERY horse that goes by injection is so dam INHUMANE its not funny. While i visted OHIO state vet clinic, i witness the TOP VET IN OHIO, put down 3 horses, guess what they fought so hard that they had to come in with a gun to kill them.
      SO don’t tell lies that its the vets fault

      • Diana B says:

        Sounds like something it going terribly wrong in Ohio. I wonder if Ohio has some vet regulation passed that prevents them from doing a better job? What you are describing is not normal.

      • daphne watson says:

        umm no there is nothing wrong in ohio, just some horses NO MATTER what you give them react differntly to sedatives or the injection. I have a friend that has a mare, that when she does her teeth they have to give her triple the amount of sedative and then she is still fighting it. NOT all horses respond to the injection in nice ways. I have plently of friends on FB that are horse owners FOR YRS and have seen injection put downs go horrible wrong. So from now one , my gun will take care of my horses when they need to be put down, quick, painless, one shot, they are dead.

      • Suzanne says:

        I don’t think most of us have objections to euthanasia by gun shot – IF the shooter is familiar with horses and knows what they are doing.

        Sounds like your vets don’t know what they’re doing with injections. Some horses ARE harder to sedate than others, yes. My 13.2 20 year old mare requires much more sedation than my 15.0 13 year old gelding. So, give ‘em more. I’d think your vets would know that. Of course, too much CAN kill, but if that’s the purpose anyway, where’s the problem?

      • daphne watson says:

        the vets in ohio are the top around. you want the horse to GO PEACEFULLY in one injection, NOT a horse that fights it. What is so peaceful about trying to get a breath when you can’t because you are basically drowning. injections are NOT a nice way to put down your horse, and trust me I know. I have seen many injections even BY OHIO STATE vets, have to be given MORE injections. The last horse i seen at ohio state put down the vet weighed the horse, said ok here we go, and gave the horse the injection, horse went down, after 5 mins of the horse still fighting and breathing the vet said wow, another injection please. it took this normal 1200 lb horse 3 injections. that there is aproblem

  19. vicki says:

    okiestorm1, this is isn’t about HSUS or the wildfires so try to stay focused. Trying to discrediting orgs or people won’t make Americans embrace horse slaughter. Please answer these questions.

    1. Where are you going to get certified vet records, from birth, for every horse that enters the plant? If a horse is abandoned and you can’t find the owner, how are you going to provide vet records for the horse? Or do you plan on falsifying them as they do now?

    3. Since the plants only buy the number of horses [115,000 on average] that are needed to fill the demand, not the number of available horses and Wallis is claiming there could be up to 1 million “unwanted” horses, what plan do you have for the remaining 885,000?

    • okiestorm1 says:

      Brenda lee is the one stuck on the wild fires in TX.

    • okiestorm1 says:

      records from birth,seriously. state and fed. inspection will do just fine. There are thousands of starveing children around the world, iam pretty sure there would be no animals turned away from slaughter!

      • vicki says:

        Unfortuanately okiestorm1, food safety laws are very specific and require that animals be raised as food animals from birth. Just as with our acceptable food source, the animals are raised as food animals from birth. Those are FDA and EU laws. In countries that produce food from horses, their horses must have passports (national vet certified health records) that document all medications given to the animal throughout its life. Any horse with a passport that was issued after age 6 months, is ineligible for slaughter. If the horse has duplicate passports, it is ineligible for slaughter. In our country, horses are raised for other purposes, not food. The US horse industry does not produce meat. It makes it’s billions from live horses doing what they were bred and raised to do.

      • Suzanne says:

        Okiestorm ~ You are woefully uninformed. Those things you mentioned may be fine for you, but they don’t come close to satisfying the EU – and THEY are the ones purchasing our horse meat. If we don’t meet THEIR requirements – which are exactly as Vicki described them – they won’t take our horses. Neither will Mexico and Canada because the EU own ALL the plants in Canada and the plants that take almost all of our horses in Mexico are also owned by the EU. Specifically, Belgium, the country that owned all of OUR domestic plants.

        Belgium has an absolute LOCK on the international horse meat trade, so it’s their way or the highway, so to speak. Besides, even the passport system doesn’t keep ALL the banned drugs out of the food chain, but it’s about the best that can be done with horses because they are not EXCLUSIVELY food animals anywhere.

  20. Brenda Lee says:

    I thought I would just share, this. Since, I’m in the sharing mood kind of thing…This is a pm from Trinity Lakes Ranch himself. The part I like, is that he is currently fundraising, for the victim of the fire here in Bastrop, TX. Now remember, he is storing all this hay and grain, in HIS barn, until winter. When he raises money, it’s called fundraising. When we do it, it’s begging… lol And you guys, think we are illogical and irrational.. Trinity Lakes Ranch

    So what are you going to do when the fire stops and donations stop flowing and owners are not found. How are you going to care for them in the aftermath of all this. Do you have a plan?? Well we do!!

    Buy them with your own money of the money you begged for. When we are done we return to ranching and working in the horse industry

    JUST CRACKS ME UP! SEE THE FUNNY SIDE OF ALL OF THIS…. HAHHAHA, he shot himself in his own foot… Begging… now why is it, everybody else, that is fundraising, actually drops it on the ground here? But oh not, Trinity Lake Ranch, and United Horsemen, they are goign to store it and keep it for them, until winter… Did you NOT think that maybe they need it NOW, and if it does needed to be stored for winter, that they could actually handle that.. That way, it’s accessible as they need, it. Not controlled, and doled out by Trinity Lake Ranch themselves… They will decide who gets, it… even though it has been raised for the fire victims… I smell a rat, does anybody else smell one??? YOU guys, really think we are pretty stupid… to fall for that… hahahah Who are the cheats??

    • okiestorm1 says:

      As you know some of these people with livestock have lost thier entire home and nothing left to go back to, thier animals for the most part are saved as of now. These people will need food for thier animals in the comming months(winter), when the donations stop the food supply stopes and the cost of bording still has to be paid.Trinity lakes Ranch is seeing that there is still food for every one to care for thier animals.Planning for the future is a good thing.

  21. Brenda Lee says:

    Here’s the deal folks. I USE TO BE PRO-SLAUGHTER, because I just accepted what people like Sue Wallis, said for the truth. I finally did my own research. I jumped the fence, fast. I never knew, that people could be so cruel and disgusting. I never knew. I know NOW! There is NO need for this to be done, in the mannerism that it is done in. After, my heart got over the shock of what you do to Equine, I ventured out, and looked at some of the Beef Cow, and Dairy Cow slaughter. OMG, if anything can make the Equine slaughter look mild, it would have to be that… So, that opened up, the topic of Factory Farming.. If I was a rancher, or farmer on today’s market, I sure won’t admit it… I would be to ashamed to admit it. Disgusting, and a poor excuse for human beings. With what I saw. I truly hope, your kind has to answer for your indifference, and your out right, beyond comprehension, abuse. I will always fight your kind, you can use logic and reasoning all you want. It’s just a smoke screen, and a justification to do what you do. I’m appalled, that we have people of your ilk, in this country, and or a part of the humane race. YOU HAVE NO JUSTIFICATION, FOR WHAT YOU DO! YOUR just greedy ^^%$$, period.

    • Cowhorse says:

      Seriously, Brenda Lee? Now you want to take on the entire ranching industry?

      Before you start swinging this donkey by its tail, you better learn ALL OF THE PRODUCTS in your every day life you use that are byproducts of that very industry. Then you best stop using them. All of them. Bet you didn’t know that antifreeze and asphalt are two products that do have some animal byproducts in them. You’d have to really research. Lets not forget even toothpaste, face creams, even some vaccines. Yep, the very industry you just took an extremely uneducated pot shot at.

      Bet you also didn’t know that eating beef (not in large amounts) contains a vitamin you can’t get from any other food. Granted, this post is about equine processing being restored in the U.S., something that NEEDS to happen. Before you start trying to kick somebody’s feet out from under them, you might want to make sure you’re standing on your own.

      • Barbara says:

        Cowhorse: There are some products out there that have replaced those made from animals. We are finding more and more that we can make products from plants or recombinant DNA techniques so that we don’t need to kill animals to do so, and it is irresponsible and inhumane for us to continue to do so or to continue to test on animals. Do I wear leather boots? Yep, they are made from animals that are raised for food (and I also eat that food). Do I wear fur? No and never will. The animals used for fur suffered unspeakable acts being literally skinned alive for their pelts. Chickens processed for firms such as McDonalds and KFC are abused and killed in the most inhumane ways. I have boycotted them. The list goes on and on and I really cannot figure out how any person would condone the inhumane treatment of our horses, a true part of our heritage and not raised for food or other products. It is criminal! It’s all about money. Some day, Wallis will be exposed for what she really is: a government official being paid off by big business.

      • Barbara says:

        Oh, and yes, we are aware that beef contains a B vitamin, B-12, that is hard to come by from other sources but it is available in eggs, fish, shellfish, cheese, and other sources. Have you ever heard of vitamin supplements? It is also a supplement in many cereals. What’s your argument again??

      • Suzanne says:

        Cowhorse ~ There is another serious fact to be learned from this post. Sue Wallis is a liar, fraud, corrupt money grubbing sleeze whose main goal in life seems to be killing horses. Even if everything she said were true, I can’t understand her absolutely RABID stance on this issue. She acts as if she has taken leave of her senses – seriously. If you disagree with her you get called an “idiot” or a “liar.” Then she posts that anti-slaughter people can’t be civil. What?

        She not only ignores Food Safety Laws, she denies that they are true, and a LOT of people seem to believe every word she says. I got told that the toxicity of bute is just a HSUS scare tactic! She is the one with the scare tactics, and seems to have everyone believing that anyone who is concerned about the welfare of any animal is an “animal rights nut job” and wants to take away your right to your animals – never mind that most of us own animals too….

        I don’t know who is bankrolling her and the so-called “United Horsemen,” but they must have VERY deep pockets because this woman is EVERYWHERE.

    • Suzanne says:

      Brenda ~ From what I’ve seen and read – which admittedly is not the be-all and end-all – cattle slaughter CAN conform to the Humane Methods of Slaughter Act, which is almost impossible to do with horses. Having said that, that doesn’t necessarily mean that in a given plant the personnel are actually DOING that. There has been quite a bit of flap lately about cattle slaughter, with the USDA being told to shore up the weaknesses in their enforcement – ah, ha, ha.

      Temple Grandin has said that the only way to ensure humane treatment – she was referring to traditional food animals, not horses – was to have cameras going all the time, and people who actually checked what the cameras were recording. She said she could inspect a plant and all was well, but the minute she left, humane went out the window.

      It’s CAN be done, but it’s a matter of constant surveillance and enforcement. This of course, is expensive….

  22. Brenda Lee says:

    I’ve grown tired of this, so you guys enjoy yourselves.

  23. Robert M says:

    Ms Welty’s letter is a sterling example of the tired rhetoric repeated ad-nauseum by the pro-slaughter contingent.

    1.) The availability of slaughter DOES NOT PREVENT OR EVEN REDUCE HORSE NEGLECT.

    2.) The anecdotal accounts of horses being “turned loose” or “tied to a post in the country” are usually false or greatly exaggerated in order to create the illusion of *thousands* of animals being abandoned. When you hear these stories, ask for proof and/or documentation and I can guarantee you won’t get it.

    3.) The 2007 closures of the US slaughterhouses DID NOT DESTROY THE MARKET — other than being overly dramatic, this statement is often used as the rallying cry from pro-slaughter activists. The closures coincided with a significant downturn in the economy; the number one rule of critical thinking is to understand that correlation does not equal causation. It is the equivalent of stating that since home burglaries and ice cream consumption increase concurrently, eating ice cream therefore causes crime. Of course this is ridiculous, as other factors such as hot weather and people leaving doors and windows open was not considered. Yet this is the same kind of argument the pro-slaughter folks continue to use to justify horse slaughter.

    4.) The cost of euthanasia and disposal: Owners of nearly 99% of the horse population manage to take care of this just fine. More often it is the folks who don’t WANT to pay for these services complaining about these costs rather than those who CAN’T. (Note: I find this argument fascinating coming from the folks who are usually politically conservative and bang the drum for “personal responsibility” — evidently animal ownership is exempt from this philosophy?)

    5.) A final note to Ms Welty: You are aware that in the US sending your horse to slaughter is still an option, right? Given that, I wonder why the owners of all those horses you are finding abandoned and “tied to posts in the country” didn’t use that option?

    • daphne watson says:

      I love it how you THINK you know everything. Take my area, MOST ppl CAN”T bury on their property so they have to call a rendering truck, WELL guess what there is NONE. so they have to call someone to come and pick it up, you are looking at 300 to 500 just for them to pick it up, IF you are close to the dump site. I am a lucky person and I can bury it on my land, last oct. I put a mare down, it cost me 180 for the vet, 500 for the back hoe, so 680 just to put one horse in the ground. NOT every one has that and thats the CHEAPER side of things. and YES the market went down hill. THE BOTTOM dollar for the horse went drastically down when the houses closed. horses were selling at the meat market for the highest amount around, but when the houses closed the market went down, because the buyers could not afford to pay TOP dollar and ship the horses to where ever. I bet if at least ONE house reopened you would see the market go BACK UP.
      please educated before you spout off.
      What you are saying about ppl NOT wanting to pay for their horses removal or burial is absurd. I know of a person in OR, that if she has to put a horse down, she CAN”T bury it, it will cost her upwards of 1500.00 just to find a rendering truck to come and get it.

      • Robert M says:

        Daphne;

        Horse are big, expensive animals — most owners are aware of this and plan accordingly. That there are some who find the costs of euthanasia and disposal a ‘burden’ does not mean that an entire industry needs to accomodate them for what they see as an ‘inconvenience’ — Nobody is forcing anyone to own a horse — it is a choice made by an individual.

        If you want something cheap to own and maintain, get a hamster.

      • daphne watson says:

        AND MOST OWNERS CAN”T bury their horses on their property. YES they have taken into account that they cost money to put down, BUT NOT all the rich and well off horse owners. You are NOT thinking about 60% of the horse owners who BOARD. they can’t bury on the boarding place, so they have to pay for the rendering truck and NOT all places have that, so then they have to pay someone to come and pick up that horse. YOU are forgetting that NOT everyone is LIKE you!!!!!!!!!!!!

        putting a horse down can get expensive as hell and YOU KNOW it can, so LAY off if ppl want to be able to have another OPTION. WHAT DO YOU CARE.

      • Robert M says:

        Again, Daphne — “Personal Responsibility”

        You’re arguing that people who can’t afford to euthanize and dispose of an animal that *they are responsible for*, should still be allowed to own one.

        This is similar to the philosophy that everyone should be able to own a home; regardless of whether they were financially qualified to do so — we all know how that ended.

        Horses: Large and Expensive

        Hamsters: Little and Cheap

        If you can’t afford to responsibly care for an animal, including end of life expenses, nobody is forcing you to own one. It’s that simple.

      • daphne watson says:

        ok then you go out and tell those ppl who board their horses, take very well care of their horses, vet care when needed, farrier care, etc. THAT they ARE NOT ALLOWED to own a horse because YOU say so because they CAN”T afford to pay the thousands of dollars that it may cost to put down, and cart away their horses.
        2 yrs ago I had a paint mare die on teh operateing table. i spent over 1500 just to unload her and another3500 for the suregy and she didn’t even make it. I had that money. BUT most ppl who own horses do not have something like that in case of something like this happens.

        So go right ahead and you tell ALL THOSE ppl who CAN’T bury, CAN”T haul, etc that they ARE NOT ALLOWED TO OWN a horse , just make sure you tell them that YOU said they can’t. OMG its terrible that someone sells a horse, kills a horse at home by bullet, OR does something that YOU DON”T approve of.
        90% of the horse owners out there are SO DAM responsible more then most, BUT in your eyes, if they do the above i mentioned to you they should NOT OWN A HORSE.
        You my SIR are NOT the person that tells someone they can’t own a horse because they DON”T have thousands or hundreds of dollars laying around.

      • Suzanne says:

        Well, Daphne, that’s something they should have thought about in advance, isn’t it? They CHOSE to take on horse ownership and that means all the responsibilities that go with it. Everything about keeping horses is expensive, didn’t they notice that as they went along? So why didn’t they plan for the possibility of the horse dying? They all do, you know.

        Is this the very first horse they have ever owned? If so, they should have educated themselves better before taking on such a large animal. If not, there is NO excuse.

        And if you think I don’t know what it’s like to struggle to pay for my horsie habit – you can just think again. Back when I was single, keeping a horse took ALL of my discretionary income. I couldn’t afford to replace my car and keep my horse, so I drove the same car for 20 years. Thank goodness it was a good car. Other times I sold my belongings to raise cash. I didn’t eat lunch to save money, etc. Where there’s a will, there’s a way.

    • Candy W says:

      If you pick up any local paper in Texas, you will see, at least once a week, a report of one or more abandoned horses. I moved here in the Fall of 2007, just as the closings hit, and there has been an increase in reports of abandoned animals. Friends and acquaintances have started locking their trailers when at events to prohibit horses from being put in their trailers anonymously. Abandoned horses were virtually unheard of in the part of IL I am from originally and now relatives report that incidences of “found” horses are increasing and owners are never found. Sale barns have increased security to prevent an increased number of unsold horses from being abandoned on site. NONE of this is anectdotal, or “made up” exagerations. Literally EVERY horse owner I know, whether they are hobby owners, breeders, trainers, etc., agree that horse welfare was far better prior to 2007. As a nation we have gone through past economic down turns and I don’t recall animals being abandoned in such numbers as now. The only conclusion I can come to is the only difference now is the processing plants are closed. If there are still 100,000 horses being processed pure year, but documented abandonments, surrenders and seizures have increased, wouldn’t the math prove that there ARE more horses that are unwanted now?

      • Barbara says:

        Candy,
        I have been through several economic crises as well and don’t recall seeing the outrageous number of HOUSES (not horses) being abandoned! I truly believe, also, that the reports of abandoned animals is now more newsworthy than people losing their houses so you are going to see more and more of these reports in the news as further proof of a terrible economic situation. It doesn’t necessarily mean that the numbers have increased — just that the newsworthy information has changed. When I was a child, we rarely, if ever, heard of a kidnapping or child abuse. Now, it’s all over the news nearly every day. Have the numbers increased or is it reported more? I don’t know. I must rely on the studies and statistics and try to make an informed decision. I must also evaluate who is performing the studies and what payoff is at stake. Anti-slaughter people don’t have much of a payoff that I can see. Animal welfare people (or “ARs” as many like to label us) don’t have much of a payoff. Can’t say the same for those who breed race horses or champion performance horses.

      • Suzanne says:

        It would prove the economy is in the worst recession since the Great Depression. I don’t know one single horse owner in Texas or Indiana that thinks it was the closing of domestic slaughter plants rather than the tanking of the economy that has caused the problems – for everyone, not just horse owners.

        Again I say – If we are sending just as many if not more horses to slaughter than when domestic plants were open, HOW does it make a difference where the plants are? Those plants in Mexico and Canada are actually CLOSER in some western states than Central Texas and DeKalb Illinois. The US is a HUGE chunk of real estate all by itself. Very long distances involved no matter how you look at it.

  24. okiestorm1 says:

    Robert, you need to do alittle more research.

    • Robert M says:

      Like the extensive “research” you have provided us all?

    • vicki says:

      okiestorm1, you still haven’t answered the two questions I posted to you.

      1. Where are you going to get certified vet records, from birth, for every horse that enters the plant? If a horse is abandoned and you can’t find the owner, how are you going to provide vet records for the horse? Or do you plan on falsifying them as they do now?

      2. Since the plants only buy the number of horses [115,000 on average] that are needed to fill the demand, not the number of available horses and Wallis is claiming there could be up to 1 million “unwanted” horses, what plan do you have for the remaining 885,000?

  25. okiestorm1 says:

    Emaciated horse found abandoned in Calif. field; humane officials nurse ‘Momma’s,’ hunt for owner
    http://www.nydailynews.com
    California humane society ,,yep all made up. RIGHT!

    • Robert M says:

      Okiestorm;

      You actually are proving my point: DOCUMENTED, abandoned horses are few and far between, and most of those are reported in the news media. It is usually a newsworthy event, primarily because of its rarity.

      However, the pro-slaughterists would lead the public to believe its *thousands* of horses that are being abandoned. It simply isn’t true.

      • okiestorm1 says:

        It is true, sorry to say and untill people wake up to what is happening the problem is just gana get worse. Why are there so many equin rescues asking for donations to help with the care of abandoned and starveing horses, if my saying there are thousands of horses being abandoned and starved is a lie,then i quess rescues saying they need donations to help care for these horses is also a lie, or should i say just not true!

  26. anna says:

    It amazes me that anyone can pretend to somehow know more than professional veterinary associations about what is a humane end for a horse. Oh, but surely the AVMA and AAEP have been paid off somehow by the evil, greedy breeding industry, right, since they say that the captive bolt gun is a humane kill method?

    And how on earth could the GAO have come up with such incorrect information in their report about the effect of domestic plants closing? (Surely, they were paid off by the big ol’ greedy meanies too, right?)

    And how about the Journal of Animal Science, who did a study that found that the existing rescue network is sadly insufficient to accomodate even the horses that become unwanted within a single year, much less the accumulation of year after year…I am sure they were probably paid off, too.

    The writing is on the wall, and it doesn’t really matter how we got to this point– what matters is solving the problem and alleviating so much of the suffering that has resulted in the depressed horse market. The thing is, NONE of the anti-processing people offer any real solutions that will be effective today. The major breed registries have already shown a drastic decrease in horses being raised each year, so let’s stop trying to vilify them, shall we?

    The bottom line is, if you don’t want to sell a horse to be processed, that is certainly your prerogative. But when animal science, reason, private property rights, and simple economics dictate the practicality and necessity of horse processing, a lot of you folks need to get off your high horse and accept the fact that processing is acceptable to many, many people. Horses are livestock, and if a horse is a pet to you, that’s also your prerogative.

    I would be really very interested to know how many unwanted horses any of the anti-processing folks who have posted in this thread can actually take in, when it comes right down to it. Put your money where your mouths are.

    • animalwelfare says:

      well said Anna…..the folks that are so rabid anti-processing don’t have a clue what is going on in the real world of equine now. It was interesting to read the ‘rants’ against breeders mostly, and mud slinging against anyone that does not agree with their fairy tale world of ‘all the little horsies will live happily ever after’ instead of having sane sensible discussions with some ideas on how to solve the horrible suffering problem so many equine are going through since the processing plants were closed. Again, a huge difference in the words Animal Welfare and Animal Activists….key word: Animal Welfare. Its really for the animals well being instead of senseless ranting and blaming!

    • okiestorm1 says:

      Thank you, very well said!

    • Robert M says:

      Anna;

      By invoking the name of the AAEP and the AVMA, you are hoping to give the impression those organizations are wholly supported in their support of slaughter by their members, which they are not. There are many equine veterinarians who take exception to the official position of the AVMA on horse slaughter. Veterinarians For Equine Welfare is an example.
      The GAO report is widely heralded by the pro-slaughter contingent as supporting their position when in reality the essence of the report basically says either legalize US horse slaughter or ban it altogether. Neither ‘side’ can claim victory from the findings in this report; it is the same information that has been rehashed since 2007, served up government-style.
      Your insistence that the availability of slaughter somehow alleviates suffering of abandoned or neglected horses proves that you are as ill-informed as Ms Welty — so I will ask again: Since selling your horse for slaughter is still an option in the US, why do you suppose the owners of all those horses you claim are being abandoned and “tied to posts in the country” not using that option?
      As for your suggestion that those opposed to slaughter should take responsibility for other people’s animals — I would ask why should they? Why are you so opposed to personal responsibility when it comes to horse ownership?

      • daphne watson says:

        use YOUR HEAD ROBERT. if there are NO houses near the ppl then their options are limited. MANY auctions have closed down because of NO buyers, so when ppl CAN”T sell them for 50 dollars they will do the next thing they can, turn them loose. My friend went trail riding last week, left her house with 2 horses came home with 4. someone tied 2 horses to her trailer. IT is happening EVERYWHERE. IF slaughter houses were back open in the states that they were in , you would NOT see horses being turned loose and left to fend. and if you DON”T think it happens, there are plenty of stories and articles of horses being left behind on Fb.
        no one is saying responsibility, you just want to take away an OPTION that these ppl have. IF they take said horse to the sale barn, they might get 50 dollars compared to what meat buyers USED to pay. So if they can’t sell them then they will turn them out and let them fend fortheirselves

      • okiestorm1 says:

        Robert your question has been answered over and over, it is due to lack of money to pay the sale bare,to pay for the coggins test to pay for transportation to the sale barn, do understand, due to not getting enough out of thier horse to cover any expense from takeing them to the sale barn.

      • Robert M says:

        Daphne:

        With all due respect, this story bears a remarkable similarity to the ‘urban legend’ that continues to circulate about people ‘finding’ horses in their pastures, horse trailers, on the side of the road, tied to trees, etc….

        Here’s a challenge for you:

        Can you provide some kind of documentation of this incidence?

        Most people, upon finding stray horses ‘tied to their trailer’ would take some kind of action. It’s reasonable to assume that most people would contact either the sheriff, police, or a local animal control in an attempt to locate the owner or have the horses impounded.
        At that point, a report would be filed.

        If you cannot access an official report, providing the name of the state and town where this occurred along with an approximate date should be enough information for anyone wanting to research and verify this story.

      • Cowhorse says:

        Geez Robert, you say why should you take responsibility for other people’s horses. Well, shouldn’t rescues take responsibility for the animals they take in? Instead, they rely on donations. You don’t notice that you’re trying to state that YOUR opinion is correct, but associations such as AVMA, AQHA, APHA and many, many others from national to local levels support restoring humane equine processing.

        You guys had your way for a while, the problem has gotten worse. Obviously your so-called “solution” is an abject failure. But, guess you’re the in-for-a-penny kind of guy, if things are bad with no plants, just think, they’ll probably just magically become all lollipops and rainbows if the borders are closed.

        Not to mention, why are all you anti- people conveniently avoiding the feral horses in the BLM yards??? These horses are just warehoused, costing taxpayers a boatload of money that doesn’t need to be, and you still try to take cheap shots at breeders? Look closely at the BLM horses and notice anti- groups are attempting to block any realistic range management including limiting the numbers of horses, have absolutely no answer to reduce the numbers, and also don’t appear to think there’s a problem with government competing directly with sellers (adoption sales versus horse sales/private treaty).

        You have to realise at some point, horses are livestock in both actuality and in law. No matter what choices you may personally want for your horses, they will remain livestock and as such, options need to exist for horse owners.

      • Barbara says:

        Cowhorse: Umm…yes rescue rely on donations. That’s why they call ‘em “rescues” and “nonprofits”. They have the land and are willing to take the animal in but need help from those of us who believe that they are doing the right thing. They also adopt the animals out and are very successful in finding good homes for them. What’s your issue? What do you care how we spend our money? And to “Animalwelfare”, do you not think that the horses going to slaughter are suffering. Get your head out of the sand! There are countless stories and videos of how these horses are treated in the U.S. feedlots, Mexico, Canada, and Europe. I just posted a link to one such story. This is not a “fairy tale” wish — it’s a hope that humans will STOP treating surplus animals cruelly and for their own profit.

    • Suzanne says:

      Just because the ORGANIZATIONS support something doesn’t mean a majority of the MEMBERS do. http://www.vetsforequinewelfare.org/index.php In fact, many do NOT. As for the AAEP, I don’t see how those officials sleep at night. They KNOW how brutal horse slaughter is. They KNOW how much bute they prescribe, and they KNOW how dangerous it is even in minute amounts for children. I couldn’t sleep. Even if their buddies in the AQHA do fund a lot of their research projects, any “Doctor” who supports sending toxic meat products for others to eat is slime in my book.

      And, Daphne, you can roll on the floor and scream all you want, but no person should own any animal that they can’t afford to take care of, in life AND death. It’s not fair to the animal.

      As for all the “unwanted” horses – however many they are – it’s the economy, NOT the lack of slaughter, because these IS no lack of slaughter, and horses have lost value in this recession just like everything else. If you want to claim you’re a “business” you have to act like one – and take your lumps just like everyone else.

      And to Anna ~ We are trying to solve the problem! Without slaughter, most of these horses would never have been born in the first place. And, as I keep reminding you, we can’t do anything about the economy.

      If slaughter is the answer, I ask for the millionth time, WHY HASN’T IT WORKED? Why are we still seeing “excess” horses when we are slaughtering as many as the market will bear. If people CHOOSE to abandon or neglect their horses instead of sending them to slaughter, well – what? They should be arrested because abandonment and neglect ARE criminal offenses. There was plenty of abuse and neglect when the domestic plants were open. It went DOWN when the plants closed.

      I STILL haven’t seen any hard and fast evidence that there are as many “excess” horses as Sue Wallis and her phony “United Horsemen” claim. You cannot take HER word for anything. She claims bute is safe after 30 days and puts up studies that have nothing whatsoever to do with food safety as “proof.” This woman would sell her own mother if there was a profit to be made.

      And, when it comes to the very real food safety issues, you are as bad as Wallis. Ignore at your peril what Vicki and I have been trying to tell you about the coming EU rules in 2013. You WILL have to raise your horses as food animals from birth. You cannot use any of the products that have “Not for use in horses intended for food purposes” on the label. Than not only includes bute, but also Banamine, Equineox – the COX-2 inhibitor – ivermectin and all the other paste wormers. You can’t use the popular fly sprays. Heck, you can’t even use SWAT. You – and your vet – will have to keep meticulous records, and if you use the above banned substances even ONCE, you will have to sign off on your horse being permanently removed from the human food chain.

      That’s the way they do it in the EU. That’s the way they are going to start doing it in Mexico and Canada. Our horses will NOT be accepted for slaughter by anyone unless we implement a comparable system. Don’t come crying and saying you weren’t warned.

      I personally will fight the adoption of such a system as hard as I can. I mean, why should we – and every other tax payer whether they own a horse or not – be willing to foot the bill, and why should us who would never send a horse to slaughter have to put up with all those rules and restrictions when we are not raising food animals? All this for the 3% or so of bottom feeders. I don’t think so.

  27. Barbara says:

    Robert: Thumbs up to you! I have used your same arguments over and over with no luck with the pro-slaughter people. They have tunnel vision and either want to just kill everything or dump them on those of use who don’t believe that slaughter is the answer to everything we don’t want! There cannot be only two solutions: to slaughter or not. There must be more than just one or the other! Those us us who are “anti-slaughter” are coming up with other solutions. We rescue, donate money, help our neighbors who are in crisis, etc., so that these animals have a healthy life and people don’t have to make that decision. I just shake my head when I hear the rants of pro-slaughter people that “we” don’t know anything”, that “our” studies and reports are false, or that “we” should pay for everyone else’s animals. What kind of solutions are those? Those such as Daphne are pretty naive to even suggest that results of a government “study” cannot be “bought”. Have you ever heard of lobbyists? Or PACs? How about the FDA and the pharmaceutical industry. All good examples of buying off so-called reliable studies to suit their needs. It’s always about money and continues to be about money in this case. We are still murdering 100,000 horses each year — that number has not decreased. So, why then, are there reports of a “glut” of horses? If breeding is the same, the numbers should remain the same. Studies have shown that in California alone, the number of abandoned or starving horses has decreased since closure of the kill plants. This is about the economy and lack of taking responsibility for your animals. What about the Premarin mares and foals? These mares are pregnant for only one reason: to sell the urine to the drug company. Many live in deplorable conditions and their babies are sold at auction because they are really not wanted — but needed to produce pregnant mare urine. Do you think this is responsible? And to those breeders who insist that they get a return on their investment, let’s look again at the economy. What makes you think that you deserve a big return when others are struggling. I have invested about $75,000 on my education and used to make about $65 to $85 an hour — now I make about $25 to $35 an hour doing the same work. I’ve been laid off my last two jobs. Where’s my return? Everyone in the U.S. is hurting and everyone must tighten their belts to survive. You mention breeders being responsible and that we should stop targeting them. How do you justify taking a well-bred, expensive race horse from the track to slaughter because he lost a race? Many go directly to slaughter without the chance of being rescued at auction. It happens every day! Offspring (grandchildren) of both Seattle Slew and Secretariat were rescued from slaughter only recently. This is a disgrace! And, it is absolutely not true that the old, weak, sick, starving, etc., are the horses being killed. The kill buyers don’t want those horses — they want healthy, well-conditioned animals that have a lot of meat. And, the meat is toxic! It was banned in pet food back in the 1970s but these kill houses are taking horses from the U.S. and selling meat to markets in Europe! There is no regard for what this meat might do to those people — it’s all about money! So, Daphne and others, continue to do your research and try not to act on emotions alone. No houses near the people? How then are we still killing the same number of horses? And not all people live where there were houses before 2007 so what did they do? We need to work on solutions other than slaughter. Horses are designated as “livestock” purely because of old, outdated zoning laws. For many, they are companion animals or help with farm/ranch work. They are not a meat animal.

    • Beverly Levitt says:

      Let me add to that with just one thing seeing as how DW doesn’t think corruption exists in our governmental system. Pfizer has contributed to our Senators and Congressmen over 6 million dollars in campaign donations since 2005. That’s right over 6 MILLION dollars. Those 3 politicians that went in the back room and took out the defunding language of the Ag Appropriations bill have all had campaign contributions from pro slaughter. It’s easy to verify. Go to maplight and do it. Again this is about GREED and the pro’s having the money to buy our politicians. I’d say 6 million would certainly be considered a pay off by most sane people.

  28. okiestorm1 says:

    Horses are livestock,not pets!!

  29. okiestorm1 says:

    livestock=food souce, if not for human use then dog n cat food would be good!

    • vicki says:

      Livestock are a food source if they were raised and regulated as food animals. US horses are not.

      I guess you aren’t aware that US pet food companies discontinued using horse meat in the 1980s. Several breeds of dogs were developing cancer from the drugs in US horse meat. So the pet food companies won’t feed it to animals but you want to feed it to humans?

      Are you going to answer the two questions I posted to you?

      • okiestorm1 says:

        It was stoped being used as dog food in the 1970′s. Yes I do think it should be used again for dog food and for human food if people want to eat it. It is not toxic, sorry but that is abunch of crap, if it was toxic everyone that eats it in other countries and those that still eat it in this country would of died by now.Horse mear is being feed to zoo animals here still today, they have not dies from it either, i would rather feed my dogs real meat then this crap with no meat and alot of grains in it, that they have to eat today.

    • Barbara says:

      Wow! I truly believe that some people just can’t read! Horse meat was banned in pet food more than 40 years ago! What is it about that statement that you don’t understand? Horse meat is toxic to humans and to pets. Now you want to feed the poor, use it in school lunches, and give it to our pets…again. Vicki: again…2 thumbs up!

      • daphne watson says:

        hey barbara you do realize that ppl STILL eat horsemeat in the US correct. i know of one lady who eats it all the time, guess what she has been eating it for about 15 yrs, just had a check up and is healthy with NO problems. wow guess shes gonna die soon cause you say its toxic. You can STILL slaughter horses in the US just not for sale. You can still kill, slaughter and put it in your freezer but you can’t sell it to your neighbor.
        Horse meat is NOT as toxic as you think, what makes horse meat toxic but beef not? there is NOTHING a horse gets that a cow doesn’t. wormer, vaccs, pain meds, all get the same thing. ALl have a withdrawl time.

      • Barbara says:

        Daphne, I never said that people in the U.S. DON’T eat horse meat. People in the U.S. also eat dog and cat meat. You are free to eat whatever you want; you just can’t sell it for consumption. According to the pro-slaughter people, we can “feed the poor” with all that horse meat. Why not feed them with dog and cat meat as well? As usual, you want to quote studies that are in your favor but disregard those that don’t agree with you. Show me a study by a reputable source that states that horse meat is fine for human consumption. As Vicki said, 95% of all horses are medicated. Race horses are given Bute before EVERY race but are sold to the kill buyers directly from the track and go directly to slaughter. As for “FED UP”, you are still free to kill and eat your own animals — even your horses. No one is taking that right away from you.

      • daphne watson says:

        I will find that source for you, BUT do you understand taht EVERYTHING we put into our cattle, hogs, etc are basically the same THINGS WE PUT in horses.
        and im sorry but you are SO VERY WRONG on the bute thing with race horses, BUTE is a banned substance in racing, because of what it does. Its a pain reliever so it covers up pain, horses will not show any pain, since a few yrs ago the TB industry has made BUTE illegal to give to race horses BEFORE a race. They can get other things that are legal, but NOT BUTE, hell QH are NOT allowed to be given bute 48 hrs before a show. Sorry barbara but please do a little more research before you spout off/

      • Barbara says:

        Daphne, Try to be civil. No one is “spouting off” — I believe this is a public forum and we are allowed to provide our opinions and insights. You need to do YOUR research. Check out the link I just posted form “Horseback Magazine” and other links posted about Bute in race horses. Regardless of what you “hear” about its legality, it is still used and people just look the other way. Check out the link posted about how Europe is beginning to ban horse meat shipped from the U.S. because of all the substances found in it. Vicki has given examples as well. What is it that you don’t understand? If you want to butcher your own horses and eat them, you are free to do that.

      • vicki says:

        Daphine, horses and cows are two different species with two different systems. What has a withdrawal period in one, may not in another. Your argument is pointless on bute. It is banned in all food animals. It doesn’t matter when you gave an animal bute. It is banned and they are forever prohibited from going to slaughter. That is a the law. At one point, they were allowing bute in dairy cows 20 months old and younger but I heard that has now stopped but I haven’t gone to the FDA site to verify it.

        As far as the racehorses, it is not banned. They are allowed bute in a specified time frame prior to the race but that has nothing to do with food safety, just the races. We are not wrong because if you pick up most racing forms, they indicate whether or not the horse is running on bute.

        If you read the Chemical and Toxicology report, racehorses were used in the study because vet records are kept. Every med given to the horses is recorded and every one of them had bute and went to slaughter. Another group of 16 from the study group would also have gone to slaughter had they not been rescued. Another study was done in CA and 99% of the racehorses were given bute prior to the races. Although not scientific, The Horse did a survey of horse owners and 96% of them had given their horses one or more banned substances at some point in their horse’s life.

        So please, post a scientific study that disputes what we have been saying. And the EU FVO report that Wallis is using isn’t valid because it is a report on European raised horses, not US horses. European raised horses have passports that document vet records from birth so horses that have received banned substances are not sent to slaughter in the first place. That is not the case with US horses. The link I provided in my other post is the most recent EU FVO report that pertains to US horses.

      • daphne watson says:

        just because the horse an cow have different systems,. THE PRODUCT withdrawl IS THE SAME. BUTE< IVERMECTRIN which both cattle and horses get the same thing, pennicillian, etc./ ALL have the SAME or within a few days withdrawl period

  30. vicki says:

    Daphene, if the BLM left the horses on the ranges, there would be no cost. If you are concerned about taxpayers, you must be livid with the hundreds of millions in taxpayer dollars that it costs to subsidize welfare ranchers grazing millions of privately owned livestock on public lands. The cost of the wild horse & burro program pales in comparison. Wild horses generate tourism dollars. Even Slaughterhouse Sue’s state WY is using wild horses in all their ads to generate revenue even though Wallis and Lummis want to remove them all. Do you know anybody that plans vacations around seeing cattle and sheep grazing?

    • daphne watson says:

      viki the gathers need to be reduce, they will NEVER stop. If the bLM would do what the WH&B act states, and that is to put down any excessive horses that have not been adopted in over a yr(most of the LTH) there would NOT be a problem with so many horses

      • vicki says:

        There isn’t a problem with the wild horses but there is an over population of privately owned livestock. There is also a GAO report that determined that the ranges are being ruined by the livestock, not the horses.

      • daphne watson says:

        oh ok, so the 30,000 horses in holding is NOT a problem NOR the amount of foals that have been gathered in the last yr? oh ok have no clue what planet you are from but to me thats an overpopulation there. and Oh pray tell HOW can the livestock do more damage in 4 MONTHS TOPS (the amount of time they are allowed on the hma’s in a yr) and the horses, elk, deer etc are there 365 DAYS thats 12 months?
        Cattle can’t clip the grass down to the roots, cattle DO NOT make holes in water holes, cattle DO NOT step in the same path and leave indentations packing the earth down, the only thing wrong with cattle is that they don’t pass seeds on. HORSES will eat the grass down to the root and then some, thus not alloweing the grass to grow back, horses paw and make water holes a muddy mess, horses PACK the earth, horses will pass on seeds. BOTH aniamls completment each other.

      • Lynette says:

        Well Hi Daphane, the Mouthpiece for the BLM. Don’t waste your time on her Vicky, she knows it all. She knows everything about the BLM and defends them like a Momma Bear protecting her cub.

        Kind of funny that the pictures I saw this weekend in reports about range land showed cattle laying in water ponds and trashing all the ground around the ponds. Destroying all the grass everywhere they went. They stay close to the ponds. Flatting everything around it. Horses come and go. They don’t stay. And they should be left on the range and given back all the land taken from them in the past. If allowed to roam their numbers would be small in comparison to the amount of range. Its incredible to think that 30,000 wild horses are said to do more damage to the range then the 550,000 cattle and the 250,000 elk do. Only in the minds of those who want the horses blood.

        And don’t even think that those wild horses in holding will ever be going to slaughter legally. Joan Guilfoyle herself just said this weekend that it is not and never will be BLM policy to send wild horses to slaughter. You beleiver her don’t you Daphne? Just like you believe Sue Wallis and her horse killing ideas. By the way read your posts at United Horsemen. Tells everything about you.

  31. FED-UP &PO'd farmer says:

    And once again, here we go on the comments thread…once again we see self-righteous arrogant people attacking others who are just standing up for their constitutional right to be able to sell THEIR OWN private property as they see fit-and once again we see them calling anyone with differing opinions names-and calling anyone who feels they have the right to receive monies from the sale of their property “greedy”-calling breeders who have spent their entire lives promoting and advancing the quality of various breeds of horses “irresponsible breeders” merely because these breeders understand and accept the fact that not all foals will be quality foals (no matter WHAT the breeding program is) and consider the slaughter market just one of the potential customers…

    Once again, we see false information and outright lies perpetuated by the anti-slaughter people-pathetically infering that THEY have the right to tell us what we can do with OUR horses-even though returning the abilty to humanely process OUR horses will IN NO WAY WHATSOEVER harm them or their horses…

    Irregardless of how anyone feels about horses or consuming them for food, we ALL must stop allowing our constitutional rights to be violated by others just because they have differing viewpoints. With over 350 MILLION people in this country, we wont see eye-to -eye on all issues-we all need to accept that and agree to disagree-but it is imperative that we ALL fight to keep our freedoms-even if they differ from our own…Forcing bans and non-essential regulations are strangling this country and tearing this country apart-something that communists have planned since the late 1950s. Time to stop this crap…we need to reclaim our freedoms-one of them being the right to sell OUR property as WE see fit-not allow others to dictate what we can or cant do with OUR horses.

    • Robert M says:

      Dear “Fed-Up” –
      “Property Rights” relative to the issue of horse slaughter is yet one more untenable argument thrown against the wall by pro-slaughterists in an effort to get something, anything, to ‘stick’ –

      Surely you are aware that there are already laws in every state that limit or otherwise define what you may do with personal property, be it animate or inanimate. From real property to animals; you may not simply “do as you wish” in disposing of it or them simply because you are the “owner”

      As you probably know, dogs and cats are considered routine fare in other countries; yet we do not slaughter them in this country because people eat them in other cultures. Based on your argument, you would have to believe that dog and cat owner’s rights are being infringed upon without the option to dispose of them by slaughter-for-human-consumption…is that seriously what you’re telling us?

    • vicki says:

      Calm down. You are getting upset over nothing. Why do you think you won’t be able to sell your horse? With horse slaughter, you aren’t slaughtering your horse, you are selling it. When horse slaughter ends, you will retain your right and freedom to sell your horse.

      And once again, as all slaughter proponents do, you are ignoring food safety. The law is black and white. Either you raise them as a food animals or you don’t. You don’t decide years down the road that they are food because you don’t want to take responsibility for them any longer.

      And what about the rights of the consumers? Don’t they count? Don’t they have the right to consume meat from animals that have been strictly raised and regulated as food animals?

    • FED-UP &PO'd farmer says:

      And here goes more pathetic arrogance!!! Just because SOME people may not raise their horses for food purposes, they attempt to force their beleifs onto others…I (and many others) breed and raise MY horses for WHATEVER purpose the HIGHEST bidder wants-FOOD PURPOSES INCLUDED!!!!! NO ONE HAS THE RIGHT TO TELL ME WHO I HAVE TO SELL MY HORSE TO-NO ONE!!!!

      And again-more pathetic OUTRIGHT LIES and deceits by antislaughter people-I have sold ALL KINDS of livestock for over 40 years-hundreds-if not thousands of head of mainly cattle, some sheep and goats as well as a small amount of poultry. NEVER EVER EVER EVER have I OR ANYONE I know of had to show what medications the animals had been given or that they were solely raised for food-NEVER!!!! A paper is on record with the sale barns indicating the animals the owner has brought are free from drugs-and if the animal is found to have drugs in its system after slaughter-the person responsible for selling them is held accountable and has to reimburse all pertinant parties. The fact is that virtually ALL drugs used in horses ARE used in other livestock species and have withdrawal times. Another FACT is that horse meat has been found to have LESS residue violations than nearly ALL other types of meat. These antislaughter people are LIARS when they spread their propaganda about all horsemeat being tainted-The OVERWHELMING amount of horses ARE NOT medicated-repeat NOT medicated that pass through the sales as healthy horses-especially the younger stock. The facilities that do slaughter horses hold the horses for a time period to make sure their system is clear of ANY medication when purchased from unknown sources. There is NO reason the sellers of horses cannot be made responsible just as the cattle and other livestock sellers simply be signing this waver (that the animal is not medicated) at the salebarn. Those who do not wish to sell their horses for food purposes simply dont sign the paper and the horse is sold as such…that way, the sellers of a signed waver can receive bids from the slaughter market-thus getting a higher price for their horse. The outright LIE that people dont sell their horses for food purposes AND that of horses “glowing” with medications would EASILY be dispelled.

      It is a tragedy that people in this country are getting to the point of forcing their beliefs onto others and completely ignoring the constitution…They are a disgrace to be called a fellow American…Time to fight for our rights people…when people tell others what they may or may not do with their property and what they may or may not eat it is past time. Under NO circumstances should this be tolerated!!!!

      • vicki says:

        Whoa, these are not my beliefs. They are food safety laws. Sorry, but your fact on residues is not correct. A report was recently released by the EU revealing residues of banned substances in US horses as well as falsified paperwork indicating the horses were drug free. That’s why by 2013 all imports must have passports. A passport is a vet certified record of all meds given to the horse from birth. Any horse over 6 months of age that is issued a passport cannot enter the food chain.

        Please send me the documentation where you see the FACT that all meds have withdrawal periods? The FDA, CFIA and EU do not agree with you and they set the rules. It is a FACT that bute [and bute compounds] as an example, is banned in ALL food producing animals. One dose and the animal can NEVER enter the food chain. You can verify this on the FDA, CFIA and EU websites. Clenbuterol and Ivermectin are both banned in horses intended for food. Read the labels on fly sprays, ointments, etc. If the label says not for horses intended for food, that means if you have given any of them to your horses, they are NOT food animals and should not be sent to slaughter.

        Where are you getting the FACT that the overwhelming amount of horses are not medicated? I don’t know one horse owner that hasn’t wormed their horses. They are banned in horses intended for food. Banned means banned. No withdrawal. A survey in The Horse revealed that 96% of horse owners have given their horses one or more banned substances. All race horses have received bute. Just about all performance, work and service horses have received bute and they’ve all been wormed. By law, that makes them non-food animals.

        Nobody is telling anyone what they can or cannot eat. When slaughter ends, you can slaughter your horse and eat it. When slaughter ends, the foreign countries can still consume all the horse meat they want. Two major European grocers have already pulled US horse meat and will no longer sell it and the more that is revealed of how unsafe our horses are for consumption, the market will keep decreasing. What our government has failed to do, the consuming countries will do – by refusing US horses.

        That is the unintended consequence of horse slaughter. You have such a callous disregard for food safety with horses, that now, the country has opened their eyes and are wondering just how safe the meat supply is that we consume in America.

      • FED-UP &PO'd farmer says:

        One last comment…For those of you reading this comment thread and are unfamiliar with the pro/anti slaughter debate-I want you to know that NEVER have the pro-slaughter folks forced their beliefs onto others-NEVER!! All we want is the very basic constitutional right to sell our animals to the market that pays the best-and to ensure that we have markets to sell our animals…At NO TIME EVER have we forced ANYONE to sell their horses to the slaughter market-NEVER!! Nor is that our intent. Yet…the antislaughter people are hell-bent on forcing THEIR beliefs onto us-dictating WHO we can/cant sell our animals to…and, incase you havent noticed, they have absolutely NO intention of being rational-NONE WHATSOEVER. It is a complete waste of time even trying to rationalize with them-they DO NOT want to hear, see, or know of the truth in any way, shape, or form, nor do they feel American citizens are entitled to their constitutional rights.

        This entire thread, along with so many others from other sources, is COMPLETELY RIDDLED WITH OUTRIGHT LIES AND DECEPTIONS…the only “sources” provided are biased lies printed from the web…a place where ANYONE can put ANYTHING on irregardless of whether it is true or not….I have right in front of me a “passport for registered equidae”, one I obtained from just one of several horses I personally imported from Europe. On page 22, the regulations of slaughter is found. Medications are divided into 4 groups, and have their withdrawal times per group. It then states “The animal can only be slaughtered for human consumption after the completion of the gereral with drawal period of six months following the date of last treatment, certified obligatory in Part iii-B, with medicinal products containing substances other than those listed in Annex I, II, or III to regulation(EEC)2377/90.”, meaning that horses treated with medicines that do not specifically have withdrawal times are automatically given a six-month withdrawal time-which is currently used in some Canadian facilties. These antislaughter people stop at nothing trying to force their beliefs onto others-and arent bashful about repeatedly LIEING over and over…and VERY CONVENIENTLY leaving out truths-such as the fact that cattle, sheep, hogs, goats, and other animals used for human consumption are routinely given medications they say are toxic to humans consuming HORSE MEAT from horses given these medications….

        Once again, people, we must fight for our rights or we will lose them. What may seem trivial differences of opinion WILL add up over time to that of allowing a vast group of tyrants imposing their opinions onto us and our loss of freedom. We CANNOT allow that to happen.

      • Jan Myers says:

        I have to smile when I read your comments…It is not arrogance Mr. FED-UP & PO’d farmer..It is ethics and they are called laws. Laws govern us from everthing from where we smoke to how we make a living. We are not arrogant we simply want people that own and use livestock/companion animals to be accountable for what they do with them. So lift yourself out of the pit and support humane laws that keep unscrupulous people out of the animal business….HR 2966 and S 1176 are trying to bring people out of the abyss into the light of compassion for horses…They deserve it and it is not their fault that indviduals overbreed, own when they are not even responsible to own a hamster. Horses are a luxury item that come with a lot of expense to keep. So if it only the rich (which it is not because I am an unemployed vet tech own one that I board and am far from rich) that can own them so be it….Everyone should be held accountable for what the do and do not do for the animals in their care…If you do it right there are no consequences, if you do it wrong there are and will be more if congress actually listens to the majority of the people..which are you?

    • okiestorm1 says:

      FED-UP,,you are so right, very well said, thank you for useing common sense.

      • Barbara says:

        FED UP: By your logic, then, we should be able to take our dogs out to the streets and set it on fire because it’s OURS to do with what we want. We should be able to buy roosters and put them into cock fights because they are OURS to do with what we want. We should be able to breed dogs for dog fights because they are OURS to do with what we want. That’s your argument? Wow! There are such things as animal cruelty that protects animals against this type of thing. It has been documented over and over that horses sent to slaughter are treated cruelly and the slaughter is extremely inhumane and painful. Many times, the horse is bled out before it is dead. Is that your right as well? To torture yet another living creature? This isn’t just in Mexico either. Reports of this sort show that this happened all over the country BEFORE the plants were closed. In Illinois, the remains and blood were flushed into the sewage system and neighbors complained so much that the plant was closed because of NEPA violations in addition to the ban on USDA inspections. According to your logic and your rights, you should be able to “sell your horses to anyone”. Go ahead — no one is stopping you from selling your horses. Find someone who likes horse meat and make a deal with him. But stop putting YOUR beliefs onto the rest of us. Your beliefs will soon end up as food in our children’s school lunches! Do you want our kids to eat even more toxic food and have even more diseases? More and more people have opted to either not eat meat or to find meat that is more organically grown. Yes, drugs have been used in meat for years; however, it is now become to the fore and people are getting tired all the cancers and other diseases that are rampant, and the USDA and medical profession are stepping up with statements that all the drugs in our cattle and other meat are causing many of these problems. It took a long, long time — but it is now being recognized. So the argument of “drugs in all meat” doesn’t hold water any longer!

  32. vicki says:

    okiestorm1, bute is a carcinogen in humans. Cancer doesn’t develop overnight so it’s not like food poisoning where you eat something and are sick within 24 hours. There are several reports available should you want to educate yourself on the subject.

    I’m sure everyone reading this thread would be interested to know what possible reasoning you have for wanting the pet food companies to start using horse meat when they pulled horse meat because it was fatal to several breeds of dogs. Are you going to pay for the law suits against them when they have to deal with their food killing pets, again?

    You keep throwing out comments about horse meat not being toxic but you provide no proof or documentation. Here are three links to published veterinary papers that prove otherwise. I can provide more, if you’d like.

    http://www.equinewelfarealliance.org/uploads/Ireland_-_bute.pdf
    http://tiny.cc/sh932
    http://www.equinewelfarealliance.org/uploads/Food_and_Chemical_Toxicology_FINAL.pdf

    • Lynette says:

      I won’t be feeding my dog horse meat ever. My dog is still recovering from the poisoned dog food we got from China.

      Hey Vicki, its like pounding your head against the wall with these people. They will never believe any facts or reports or anything you give them. They just want the few bucks to get rid of their horses and they don’t care if consumers get sick or horses suffer. Money is King!

  33. Samantha Maier says:

    To the man that said ” horses are not pets they are livestock ” , perhaps in your eyes they are , but where I come from , U.S.A. we dont breed horses for food. We do seem to send ours to other countries however and thats just wrong on all levels. I have done rescue for 14 years now and have NEVER sought donations of any kind and I will tell you why. I never wanted someone to say ” well I gave her 50 bucks , but for all I know it went to her truck pament “. I will tell you this however , I have accepted hay for the horses and thats it. Perhaps if the breeders both backyard and professional would stop breeding horses , ponies , and donkeys than we wouldnt be overun with them the same as we are with out animal shelters.

    • Cowhorse says:

      Samantha Maier – horses ARE livestock. They are classified as such by LAW. If you doubt that, you should research animal classification law. That doesn’t mean that you may not personally TREAT your horses as pets, but by doing so, that doesn’t actually change the legal classification. Some people use dogs as modes of transportation, not as pets, so you can argue that pets have one criteria for care and livestock another. You have to accept that not everybody will use animals in the way you personally deem socially acceptable. It won’t change legal facts either.

      It really hasn’t been all that many years ago that some people DID raise a colt every other year or so for meat purposes. They found the meat to be tender and in some cases preferable to other meat. Just because you may have a personal objection to eating horse meat, once again, that doesn’t mean that it isn’t done. And lest you use the arguement that it wasn’t here in the U.S., it was.

      And then you once again tried to beat a dead horse; breeders, breeders, professional breeders, blah, blah, blah. You make that statement while obviously either ignoring or hiding from the fact that the 3 major stock horse breed registries all report substantial reductions in the number of horses being registered. So breeders are actually working to combat the problem! The largest group of horses that is mismanaged for overpopulation is the feral and wild horse populations that are on BLM lands. Thousands of horses being warehoused because there’s no market for them. Nope, adoptions – down to nonexistent. As was explained, the hooves of horses and their grazing habits are different from that of cattle. To protect rangeland for the betterment of ALL species, horses must be limited in numbers. To allow them to populate like rabbits would only destroy the range to the extent not only would any other specie survive on the land, neither would the horses. Horses graze closer to the ground than cattle and will paw up the grass to eat roots. You see this happen every year during the fall when the grass stops growing even when they are fed, its that nature of the beast. Those horse numbers have absolutely got to be reduced, not just because it is a taxpayer burden, but also because the ground canNOT support that level of overgrazing.

      It is hoped that, Samantha, you will learn something from these posts. Even if you should choose not to, it would be nice if other people learned more about this issue in its entirety and not be distracted by the tactics the anti-use groups throw out.

      • vicki says:

        Cowhorse, you can call them livestock, you can call them farm animals, or whatever you want. But, that does not make them food animals. They are livestock that are raised for purposes other than food. Not all states classify horses as livestock (there is no law) and not all livestock are food animals. There is only one definition of a food animal and US horses do not fall into that category. They do not meet the requirement of the FDA and EU to be called food animals.

        Yes, the numbers must be held in check to preserve public lands so how about getting the livestock numbers down to the same numbers as the wild horses? Complain to the BLM about warehousing horses. We don’t like it either. There was no reason to remove them in the first place. So it’s okay for the livestock to overgraze and ruin the ranges? Where is your documentation that the horses are ruining the ranges? The GAO report says otherwise.

    • Barbara says:

      COWHORSE: I don’t think any of us is arguing that horses are classified as livestock. We know they are — you and others don’t need to keep repeating the “law”. The law, as any old law, was set up for specific reasons. It doesn’t mean that the horses are suitable for meat or are raised for meat. They aren’t. If people want to eat horse meat, they are perfectly within their rights to do so. The “law” is that horse meat cannot be sold for human consumption in the U.S. Hence, we sell tainted and toxic meat to Europe. BUT, if you followed some of my recent links, you’ll see that Europeans are getting wise to the U.S. and they are beginning to ban U.S. horse meat because of all the toxins in it. As far the feral horses and burros, I don’t disagree that there “might” be a problem; HOWEVER, just as everything else that humans have destroyed, they have destroyed the predators of those animals, which is why they are overpopulating. The BLM roundups cost the American public a fortune with no end in sight and are cruel and inhumane. Watch a video of a BLM helicopter chasing a foal and tell me that it’s not cruel to chase this creature to exhaustion and then take it away from it’s mother and surroundings. Someone mentioned the ranchers just “trying to feed America”. If that’s the case, then why are some being paid off by the gov’t to NOT grow crops? This keeps prices high, obviously, and crops in demand. It’s all about money!

    • Lynette says:

      Somehow they just don’t get the law of supply and demand. The horse industry will not come back until the supply goes down and the demand goes up. And slaughter is not going to make that happen. Like they say “its the economy. . .”

  34. Shelia says:

    According to the September 1, 2011 paper by the Association of Racing Commissioners International, 99.5 % of biological samples taken from racehorse & tested in 2010 were clean. This article has been reported in both bloodhorse.com & The Horse.com. Horse racing is more aggressively drug tested & regulated than any othe professional sport.

    http://www.bloodhorse.com/pdf/DrugsInUSRacing2010_TheFacts.pdf

    • vicki says:

      Yes, you are correct but that study has nothing to do with food safety. The properly test to detect bute residues as it relates to food safety, is to assay kidney tissue. You can verify this on the EU, FDA and CFIA websites. Unless a horse has been given massive amounts of bute, it will not show up in the blood within a few days after administration.

    • Robert M says:

      Sheila;

      You do realize this report is discussing the findings of tests for banned substances and over-limit legal drugs? This study is not concerned with legal-limit use of allowed drugs.

      There are numerous allowed or ‘legal’ drugs used in racing, of which phenybutazone is one. It may be administered IV up to 24 hours prior to a race.

      Ms Wallis’s attempt to use this report to support her assertions that concerns over toxic drug residues in horsemeat are baseless, shows once again her lack of insight and understanding of the issue.

  35. vicki says:

    okiestorm1, this is re: your post above but there is no reply button. Bute is a carcinogen in humans. Cancer doesn’t develop overnight so it’s not like food poisoning where you eat something and are sick within 24 hours. There are several reports available should you want to educate yourself on the subject.

    I’m sure everyone reading this thread would be interested to know what possible reasoning you have for wanting the pet food companies to start using horse meat when they pulled horse meat because it was fatal to several breeds of dogs. Are you going to pay for the law suits against them when they have to deal with their food killing pets, again?

    You keep throwing out comments about horse meat not being toxic but you provide no proof or documentation. Here are three links to published veterinary papers that prove otherwise. I can provide more, if you’d like.

    http://www.equinewelfarealliance.org/uploads/Ireland_-_bute.pdf
    http://tiny.cc/sh932
    http://www.equinewelfarealliance.org/uploads/Food_and_Chemical_Toxicology_FINAL.pdf

  36. vicki says:

    Sorry for the duplicate post. It kept saying awaiting moderation…. Those are the links I mentioned in my previous post.

  37. vicki says:

    Cowhorse, yes, everyone should read the threads and they will see where the lies are coming from. You haven’t provided one bit of documentation to back your statements. The three links I provided were not from equine advocates. They are veterinary papers that we uploaded to our website. Medical professionals wrote them, not us. Two are from the EU (the market for our horses) and the other was a peer reviewed published paper in the Chemical and Toxicology Journal that was researched and prepared by a medical doctor from a government university a renowned veterinarian from Tufts University and a veterinarian in France. You will need a little more than your opinions to dispute their research. Don’t forget, the folks that set food safety rules are medical professionals. And it is up to the owners of food animals to follow the strict regulations that they have established to ensure our food supply and the food we supply to other countries is safe for consumption.

    You continue to dismiss food safety laws even thought we have provided documentation disputing everything you have posted. We’d be glad to read the opposing scientific opinion but you haven’t provided any. It is a shame that you don’t understand how an animal must be raised to enter the food chain. If medications are banned, they are banned and if our food sources are being given banned substances that certainly can explain all the food recalls and the thousands that have become sick from meat.

    The 6 month quarantine was a pass the EU gave the US so we could gradually come into compliance. If you read the EU regulations you would know that all exporting countries must be in full compliance by 2013. That means a full national passport system. We don’t have one and since only the owners of less than 2% of the horse population can’t seem to provide a humane end of life for their horses, do you think you are going to be able to shove a passport system down the throats of all horse owners? And even with the 6 month pass, they can’t follow regulations. We have stacks of falsified paperwork and the if you’d read the reports, you would see the EU has discovered the same thing along with drug residues.

    Support slaughter, that is your right but if you want to be taken seriously, you need more than propaganda to overcome the overwhelming documentation that exists that is contrary to your opinions.

  38. okiestorm1 says:

    So Vicki, there is absolutly no meat in dog food these days we all know that,so what exactualy is it that is still causeing our dogs to get cancer,all kinds of cancer, its not horse meat cause it nolonger exist in dog food,so what is it? could it be all the grains in dog food, dogs need meat not grain, reopen the plants! I’am pro-slaughter and always will be pro-slaughter.you can talk till your blue in the face i know the facts about the drugs all animals are given and the waiting periods,and any thing else you anti-slaughter people come up with. now I got letters to send and petitions to sign. Good night!

    • Barbara says:

      Okiestorm: What a ridiculous statement. Animals get cancer for various reasons, just as people get diseases for various reasons. Horse meat was pinpointed as one such cause in dogs. Obviously, it’s not the only cause. What causes a person who has never smoked to get lung cancer? No one knows for sure. But if they found that a certain chemical in water was causing it, it would most likely be banned — this has already happened! So you can bury your head in the sand and pretend that these problems don’t exist. I cannot understand why someone would advocate treating horses the way they are treated when shipped to slaughter, while in feedlots, or during the kill. It’s beyond me! And this isn’t just in Mexico — it was found right here in the U.S. while there were inspections going on and legal operations. The treatment was horrendous — animals suffered unspeakable acts of cruelty. If the kill houses are reopened, these acts will continue on our turf as they did before — when there WAS regulation!

    • vicki says:

      The specific issue was traced to Ivermectin in horse meat. There were also issues from ingredients coming from China in recent years that killed hundreds and hundreds of pets.

      And just as we discovered what China was doing to us, the consumers of horse meat are discovering what the US is doing to them. And you are denying it just as China did until it was proved. And the EU already has one report issued that proves what is in the horses we are sending to foreign consumers.

      I think you answered your own question. If the producers of our food have the same disregard for food safety, one can only imagine what is in our food sources.

  39. Barbara says:

    http://canadianhorsedefencecoalition.wordpress.com/2011/07/31/the-sad-fall-of-a-racehorse/

    Do you think this is just? Follow one race horse’s story. He last raced on 7/11/11 and was murdered on 7/19/11 for his meat!

  40. okiestorm1 says:

    For one barbra,humans are murdered not animals, this was the owners choice to send this horse to slaughter, it was his or her right to do so!

    • Barbara says:

      Well, for one, Okiestorm1, “a rose by any other name is still a rose” — semantics: murder or slaughter — hmmm, which would you prefer happened to you? Seems to me that the outcome is the same: death! Yes, it was the owner’s choice; HOWEVER, all pro-slaughter people keep telling us is that “there is no other choice, we have to re-open the kill houses because the horses can’t be sold or are starving”, or WHATEVER the excuse of the day happens to be. This story just shot down all those arguments. This horse never had a chance. It was bred to race, didn’t win, and was “murdered”. No stopping at an auction where it may have had a chance to become a nice trail horse for someone (yes, I own an ex-racehorse and he’s wonderful!) — he went directly to the killers. No add in the paper to sell the horse to a loving family. This guy was pissed off because his horse didn’t make him some dough and got rid of him — punished him in the worst possible way! So don’t get bogged down in what the death is actually “called” — killed, slaughtered, murdered — doesn’t matter. This horse was not bred for food. As I said in another post responding to FEDUP&PO’d, if we want to take our dog into the street and set him on fire, is that our right because we “own” him? If we want to breed dogs for dog fighting, is that our right because we “own” them? How about cock fighting? Is that our right because we own a rooster? Don’t think so, and you cannot justify it.

      • daphne watson says:

        IF YOU barbara follow the hosre industry YOU WOULD know that right now for TB race horse owners it is ILLEGAL to sell your horse to known KB, or take him to an auction and LEAVE letting a KB buy him/her. ALL you have to do is check that horse for a TAT and if its a TB, call the reg. and tell them that a TATed TB is at an auction with known KB. THe guy who is trying to sell them GETS his racing lic. suspened or taken away, and the horse is rescused and he can NO longer race. ITS not that hard to do.
        BUT we ask you anti’s all the time IF you want the unwanted, unsellable horses, because you all have taken away an option that SHOULD BE OUR CHOICE not anyone elses. So if we can’t take our horses to slaughter(for what ever reason, and NO mine will not go there), then something has to be done with them IF we can’tbury, can’t get a rendering truck, to our houses. THen YOU all should take them, because YOu all think they are “PRETTY PONIES” that no matter what is wrong with them should LIVE forever.

      • Barbara says:

        Daphne: Obviously, you did not read the post and billboard campaign about this specific race horse because then YOU WOULD KNOW that this guy did indeed sell his horse to the KB, bragged about it, and would do it again! What is it about this story that you don’t get? Are you kidding? Do you not read the information about how many race horses go to slaughter? This guy didn’t get his license suspended — nothing happened to him. The horse went directly to slaughter from the race track and it happens all the time. Two offspring (grandchildren) from famous race horses Seattle Slew and Secretariat were rescued from a kill house just recently! Now, as far as us wanting to take all the unwanted horses, why is this always the answer for you people? These horses are not our responsibility. They are the responsibility of the breeders who don’t want them any longer. Did you know that “milk mares” are purposely bred to produce milk for these breeders when one of their mares has rejected its baby? Did you know that the baby of the milk mare is either left to starve, killed immediately after birth by bashing it in the head, or immediately sold to slaughter where they skin it for its pelt and sell the meat to EU? Did you know that some EU markets insist that the baby be SKINNED ALIVE because they believe that the meat is sweeter? Who’s responsibility is this? AND, BTW, we DO TAKE responsibility for as many of the unwanted horses as we can by providing safe havens and rescues for them at our expense. WE DO donate money and food to take care of them. So don’t even go there! And I would be willing to bet that a vet near where you live has options for disposing of the carcass if you can’t bury it. This should be a consideration for horse owners BEFORE he or she buys a horse, not after it’s too late. You DO have choices. You may not like them, but they are choices. And as I mentioned twice now in previous messages, we don’t have the right to do WHATEVER we want (dog fighting, cock fighting, etc.) with our animals because we OWN them. The law saws that horse meat is not fit for consumption so that isn’t a choice. I won’t even address your last statement because it is idiotic!

      • daphne watson says:

        let see barbara YES its OUR choice as a person do to with what we see fit to do with OUR horses. NOT USE OR ANYONE ELSES. If we want to kill that horse to fill our freezers WE CAN. SLAUGHTER is NOT banned from the US for OURSELFS, its banned to be SOLD for human consumption. I know of 2 ppl that raise horses to FILL his freezer. HE IS ALLOWED TO because its NOT against the law to do that, NOW if he sold that meat then YES he would be in trouble.
        and this is NOT about cock fighting or dog fighting, which I might add is STILL legal in KY(cock fighting). And IF the houses were NOT shut down, those owners that CAN”T sell, get find a home for, rescuses are turning away, SHOULD BE able to do with what ever they chose to with THEIR horses. slaughter, kill at home, etc. NO ONE should take away THEIR personnal rights to do so, NOT YOU, NOT I, NOT ANYONE>
        and lets see choices, ok I have had to place in the ground 2 horses that I have spent over 8000 dollars on getting or trying to get fixed, one for a broken leg that cost me over 2500, and the other that cost me over 6500 to have colic surgery done on which both neither survived. IT cost me for the one mare over 550 to put her in the ground, and over 650 for the other. MOST ppl do not have that money. AND no smart ass, THE VETS in my area DO NOT have the ability to take dead horses, they will suggest you take them or have someone haul them to the nearest dump, which from my area is an hr away and costs upwards of 1000 to have someone haul, and pay for the dump.
        the water table in my area is high, which means MOST ppl CAN”T bury or place in a bone yard ANY kind of animal, MYSElf i live on a hill which has lower water table so I can bury animals.NOT many ppl can.
        AND like i said before YOU ARE NOT THE BOSS of others, YOU HAVE NO say in what they do with their horses,NO ONE DOES< if they want to sellt hem to a KB SO BE IT, you CAN"T take that right away from them. You can still slaughter horses, just NOT sell their meat.

      • Barbara says:

        Daphne: apparently you still don’t get it. No one is “banning” the personal slaughter of your horse for meat. No one is saying that you can’t do that to fill your freezer. If you raise your horse and want to eat it, do it! If you want to eat your dog, do it! No one is stopping you from that choice. No one is banning you from selling your horse at auction. You keep muddling up the facts and throwing out other nonsensical arguments about your rights. No one is taking those away. If you pay big bucks to care for your horse before and after it dies, that’s the price you pay to own a horse and that’s your responsibility. You have not answered any of our questions about the other abominations that take place — you just keep going back to your circular logic because you have no answers to the real questions and no proof of your allegations.

        Thank you, Vicki, for adding your comments!! Apparently, Daphne and other pro-slaughter people have run out of arguments and can’t back the ones they propose. “Slaughterhouse Sue” has been proven wrong over and over yet the people who want to line their pockets will continue to blather about “their rights”. We have proven over and over that the incidence of abuse and/or starvation has not increased since the kill houses were closed. In fact, it has DECREASED in California alone! The incidence of horse stealing has also decreased since the kill houses were closed. Since we are still slaughtering 100,000 a year (as pre-2007), where does the “glut” of horses come from? Seems to me that if one part or “variable” of the population “equation” remains the same, the other part should remain the same. Simple math! So, it stands to reason that the irresponsible breeders (and I don’t mean ALL breeders) are a big part of the problem but no one addresses this issue.

        And, Daphne, the dog and cock fighting analogies were used as examples of what we can and cannot do with OUR animals. I don’t care whether it is still legal in KY. Not the issue!! If you continue to say you have the right to do whatever you want with your animal because you OWN it, the “Michael Vicks” of the world should never be arrested! They were HIS dogs; he OWNED them, blah, blah, blah. That’s your logic.

        You keep talking about the cost of burial or disposal. That’s the cost, period! Sorry that some can’t bury their animals in their yards but that’s the zoning law. If you want to change those laws, do something about it. If we accept the responsibility for owning a large animal, we accept the responsibility of caring for it. Proper disposal is part of that responsibility, not selling to the highest bidder. Another fact that you fail to address is that the sick and infirm are NOT the ones being sold to slaughter because they are not wanted so it’s still not an option to get rid of an old, sick horse.

        As Vicki said (and all of us have said over and over), no one is losing his or her rights.

      • Barbara says:

        And BTW, Daphne, first, don’t call me names. That just shows your ignorance. Second, I never said that vets could “take” the animals. Can you read? I said that vets may have options of what to do as I’m sure they are asked many times by people who don’t know the process. They could advise people on the best way to dispose of the animals or recommend people to help.

      • Barbara says:

        Daphne: One more thing. I am truly sorry for the loss of your horses. I know that it must have been very hard for you. I would be interested in knowing, however, why you keep stating that “none of yours” would ever go to slaughter. Those you mentioned were obviously sudden cases and not candidates for selling, but what about the others that you may no longer be able to care for at some point? According to pro-slaughter people, the process is “humane” and the horses do not suffer. Why then would you NEVER send one of yours?

      • daphne watson says:

        ok barbara to say a few things. NUMBER 1- IF i can no longer take care of my horses, MY family WILL. 70 acres for the horses to be on.
        and NUMBER 2-

        NO ONE and i mean NO ONE has the right to tell ANYNONE what they can or can’t do with their horses , NO ONE. NOT YOU OR anyone else. BY taking the slaughter houses away IS telling them YOU CAN”T DO THIS, because they are pretty ponies and EVERY one needs to be saved.

        NO ONE and i mean NO ONE can tell you or anyone else WHAT they can or can;t do or use their horses for( abuse , neglect yes NOTHING ELSE>)

  41. vicki says:

    Actually, Daphne, if you followed the horse industry, you would know that what you said it not at all true. There is no law. What is true is that if the racetrack has a zero tolerance on horse slaughter, the stalls are permanently revoked but only for that track and other tracks owned by the same company/owners. It is a track by track policy and no licenses are revoked.

    Why can’t slaughter proponents get the facts straight?

    Here’s a unique concept, why not ask owners to be held accountable for horses they chose to buy or breed? And just to clarify, nobody is losing any rights. They sell their horse at auction and after horse slaughter ends, they will retain their “right” to sell their horse. So exactly, how are you losing any rights? That is just another piece of propaganda and emotional rhetoric. Try to scare people into thinking they won’t be able to sell their horse. Every “right” that you have now, you will have after slaughter ends.

  42. okiestorm1 says:

    You are putting animals haveing the same rights as humans, humans are murderd animals are killed,put down or slaughtered for food. murder is when one human takes another humans life!also putting the slaughtering of an animal any animal in the same catagory as animal abuse is just showing how much you don’t know. slaughtering an animal for food and abuseing an animal for some sickos pleasure like Vick is totaly two diffrent things and you all know it, if you don’t know the dirrerance there is something realy wrong with you upstairs. You people are not makeing any sense at all with your comments, but then again you are not here to tell the truth, you are here to try and make us pro-slaughter people look like we are terrible people, but real animal owners know better.Farmers,ranchers,dairy men and women,livestock owners in general do not abuse our animals, we care for our animals and to put us in the same catagory as people like vick and cock fighters is just showing your true colors!You do not deserve my time any longer!

    • Barbara says:

      Once again, you are not reading what’s being presented. No one is putting anyone in the same categories as the Michael Vicks or cock fighters. I was merely using that as an example for those of you stating that you have the RIGHT to do ANYTHING you want with your animals because you own them. I am saying that you don’t have that right because the law states that. And, as I also said, would you rather be murdered or slaughtered? Either way, the outcome is the same. I don’t care how you sugar coat what’s happening to the horses going to slaughter, they are abused and inhumanely killed. They suffer! You can call it processing or tickling their noses if you want — the outcome and the suffering is the same!

      No one has ever said that ranchers/farmers don’t “take care” of their animals. It is in their best interest to do so. Every time you people open your mouths you “spin” everything to try to justify your beliefs. You have NEVER answered our questions about the truth of what’s going on: how about milk mares, Premarin foals, foals being skinned alive, race horses going directly from the track to kill buyers, and on and on. How about the fact that horse meat is not fit for consumption. You have NEVER addressed that truth. We have proven studies and statistics about this entire ordeal — you don’t have squat! You have “slaughterhouse Sue” who is in bed with the European meat dealers who are contracting for horse meat; however, they are now beginning to turn U.S. horse meat away because it is toxic! Good!

      Abuse is abuse and these horses are being abused on the way to and during the slaughter. This is not a fairy tale and it is not two different things in this case. Try reading the text instead of reacting to what you THINK is being said. BTW: No one is asking for your time so good riddance.

      I refuse to have a battle of wits with an unarmed person!

      • Cowhorse says:

        Oh Barbara, “refuse to have a battle of wits with an unarmed person.” No one is asking for your time so good riddance. You have “Slaughterhouse Sue.” The ‘fact’ that horse meat is unfit for human consumption. “Processing or tickling their nose…”

        You know, Barbara, had you started with credibility, you lost it all and then some. Your comments reek with your sarcasm, which is usually a good cover when you are trying to steer people away from actually answering or when you refuse to acknowledge.

        Kind of commical when you look at it. You’re vehemently arguing the ability to anthropomorphize animals. They are not people, no matter what human emotions you attach to them. That doesn’t at all mean there cannot be a good working relationship built on trust and respect between a human and horse. But the horse does not think or have emotions like a human. However, that is an excellent ploy when trying to reach those who’ve watched a few movies and haven’t gotten any closer to horses than that. They might be swayed by the emotional blackmail you’re inflicting. Yes, to anthropomorphize an animal in order to solicit a specific response from a group of people is emotional blackmail.

        Something I would like an honest answer to, none of you & your cronies misdirects, what do you think will happen to all the old, sick, injured, or other non-recoverable horses? Let’s be honest, rescues are full and not taking on any new horses and if the horses can’t have a few months of grociers, a worming, some hoof care, and a pretty pony name slapped on them and be adopted, the rescues will very likely be housing a special needs horse until it is dead. And no, if a person buys a horse for a purpose and the horse cannot meet the needs of that purpose (for whatever reason), that owner has the express right to take that horse to a sale. If it is a lameness issue, what exactly will this horse do in its life, say living another 20 years as an example. With the exception of being a pasture ornament? At what point in this horse’s life does it become obvious the lameness issue is permanent, he isn’t getting better, and mobility is a difficult issue. At what point to you respect that horse enough to just let. it. go. No more suffering. Before saying ALL horses can be rehabbed to a healthy state, don’t. That would be an insult to my experiences and to the horses who had to go through as much as they did while we, in our quest to save them and make them comfortable, caused them to linger longer than they should’ve.

      • Barbara says:

        Oh, Cowhorse, it’s so typical of you people when you have no facts to back up what you say to lash out at those of us who do. Yes, the sarcasm comes as a result of people like Daphne who want to resort to name calling when they have no other ammunition. She’s the one who said that we don’t deserve any more of “her time”. I merely pointed out that we’re not asking for it!

        We continue to present the facts backed up by studies over and over but you don’t listen. We are not anthropomorphizing the animals in any way. We are simply pointing out that they suffer greatly during the slaughter process. They are fearful and panicked. Do they think? Yes, they have a brain. Do they “reason”? Possibly not, but they do act on instinct and they DO have the capacity to feel pain and, yes, even sorrow! If you are a true animal person and have actually observed your animals, you would have seen expressions of pain, sorrow, loneliness, or other emotions, whether on the same level as humans is not known. I have never stated that horses “think as humans”. This is just another example of you and the rest of your cronies spinning our words. None of what you have claimed has ever been said! And what if they don’t? So what? They still feel pain and still suffer when abused.

        It’s amazing that when one person takes an animal and clubs it to death or skins it alive at home, it’s called “abuse”; when several people do it in a “facility” and for pay, it’s called “processing”!

        Yes, it is “fact” that horse meat is not fit for human or pet consumption because horses are not currently raised for their meat. What part of that fact don’t you get? It was banned in pet food in the 1970s. Do people eat it in the U.S.? Yep, they do. That’s their choice. But it cannot be “sold” in the U.S. for human consumption.

        Naturally, you have once again brought up the sick and infirm as yet another ploy to get people on your side and tug at their heart strings. We have already addressed that issue over and over so I won’t address it again here. Vicki has answered your questions above — yet again. No need to continue to bring it up as it is a moot point now.

        None of you has yet to answer any of our many questions. You continue to skirt the issues by asking other questions, which we answer. So, go back and read the previous posts before spewing your bile at me. My credibility? As what? I’ve never stated my credentials and I honestly don’t need to. What I have presented are facts backed up with studies and stats. Several of us have already done that. You have not. You have no studies to back what you say.

        “Slaughterhouse Sue”? — interesting that you knew exactly who I was talking about. Find out her payoff before supporting her. I always ask myself what’s behind any campaign and who stands to gain from it. It’s very obvious that the “irresponsible” breeders and those involved with the overseas meat people stand to gain quite a bit from reopening the kill houses. Those of us who want to keep them closed have no financial stake. In fact, we will GIVE money and our time to support rescues and continue to find homes for those animals.

        You also mentioned “humane” processing. All animals must have the best treatment possible throughout their lives. Obviously we agree on that. Animals should not suffer when there is no hope for them. We agree on that. So, as Vicki and all of us have pointed out repeatedly, that’s when you call the vet and have them humanely put down. It is NOT when you send them off to only suffer even more at the hands of the kill buyers. Here’s another interesting “fact” for you: Mexico will not take studs because they are too much trouble. So, many are sent back and left to starve. BUT, many are barbarically castrated with no anesthetic just so that they will be accepted for kill. Do they not feel pain and suffer? Do you think this is “humane”? There is nothing humane about the current processing procedures. It has been proven that even the end process, such as the bolt to the head, does not necessarily work on horses because it is designed for cattle. You can do that research yourself.

  43. vicki says:

    Cowhorse, the old, sick and injured are not the horses going to slaughter. But you just keep saying it. The USDA and Temple Grandin have stated that over 96% of horses going to slaughter are an average age of 7 and are in good shape. The meat mean don’t want old, sick horses. They want young healthy horses.

    And once again, slaughter is for food production. It is not the place to send excess and unwanted animals of any species. What don’t you get? It is not a disposal service or a dumping ground. It is for animals that were raised and regulated as food animals.

    Yes, let’s be honest. The rescues are not full. Some are and others that can’t take in horses on their property have foster homes and neighbors that help out until there is room at the rescue. The rescues I work with are still taking in horses. We just rescued 30 horses and had them placed in less than 24 hours. Why should the burden of caring for other people’s animals fall solely on rescues? Why do you dismiss owner accountability? There is enough to take in with animals that are seized, which by the way, happened when the domestic plants were open. Slaughter doesn’t stop abuse and neglect. You make it sound like horses are the only animals in need. Do you remember the situation in MT with 1,200 animals? Only 80 of them were horses and every horse was placed. The other animals were livestock, cats, dogs and one llama. And who jumped in to help – the rescues. Until the quarter horse breeder in MT with 700 horses, the largest case of horse neglect occurred when all three plants were operating. How did slaughter prevent that? There was a case in IL with 60 horses when Cavel was still open. Slaughter didn’t prevent that.

    And you are correct. The owner has an express right to sell his/her horse and when slaughter ends, they can still sell his/her horse. Nobody is taking the right away to sell horses.

    Seriously, if a horse is lame and does not have quality of life then pick up the phone, call the vet and have him humanely euthanized. Nobody is saying to keep the horse alive but if the horse is lame or injured, why on earth would you drag him to an auction and have him linger for days, perhaps at a feed lot, on and off trailers and then to be butchered alive. You make no sense.

  44. Cowhorse says:

    Besides the old, sick, or injuried that are being abandoned – yes, they are!, where else do you really think those horses end up?

    It ain’t the land of lollipops and unicorns, I promise you. No, If their health and wellbeing is compromised badly enough they may be forced to suffer needlessly as some foundation might be able to make a few bucks off Old Nellie before secretly leading her to a corner behind the barn and shooting her. Or maybe Old Nellie went right to the KB pens? But first you have to admit that there are non-revoverable horses, for whatever reason. Plain and simply, non-recoverable. Those horses must have the best treatment through the end of life possible. That happens with humane processing.

  45. Cowhorse says:

    Jan Myers and Barbara – you guys throw out your few catch phrases of “spewing bile” and other comical expressions, meanwhile trying to circumvent the real issues. Do you think you gain support? You’ve not supported any of your comments with any real statistics or information. You like to pretend that smoke and mirrors is the real situation; once again, it isn’t.

    You can be amused all you want, but the damage people such as yourselves are doing to the horse industry and REFUSING TO TAKE RESPONSIBILITY OR ACKNOWLEDGE your part in it says an awful lot about your powers of deduction. You two can talk about taking responsibility all you want. You’ve taken cheap and foolish shots at responsible breeders, despite the FACT that all major registries have reported DRASTIC declines in registration and breeding. Breeders are not the problem here. People who keep trying to blame them for being proactive by raising the best quality horses they possibly can, reducing greatly the number of horses they’re raising, and taking good care of the ones they have and are selling are the problem. Instead of actually recognizing the largest and poorest quality number of horses come straight from BLM adoptions, you’re neglecting to be truthful. A very common and typical trait which many in the horse industry have noticed.

    So Jan Meyers, you don’t like redundancy. So? If you can’t grasp the entire concept of this issue, perhaps repetition will sink in. If not, you probably are irritated with redundancy because you’re unable to understand the entire scope of damage your people have caused. What is unconcionable though, the fact that the anti-slaughter gang has created a lot of damage to the industry with screaching about the entire option of slaughter. Worse yet, despite a GAO report proving you wrong in your so-called efforts, you want to continue to compound the problems.

    Yes, your push is essentially ending the potential sale of a certain set of horses. You’d like people to believe otherwise, but it flat isn’t true. You think horses that are sick, injured, aged, or dangerous will be purchased by anyone? Let me guess, you’d like to have the general public believe those horses are only needing a loving home to fix everything for them. It isn’t real life. Good horses are lost because of injuries and illness, do you really think those horses of lesser quality are going to be snapped up? No. They are not. If there is no market, there is no longer the freedom to sell those horses. That is only common sense once you take the blinders off. You’ll keep trying to use that argument, but it is an empty statement. Your push is removing a market, at least be honest about it instead of parroting the old rote.

    Your answer is always, if there’s a problem call the vet (this costs a lot of $$$), have them chemically euthanize them (more $$), either hire a backhoe to dig a hole ($$$) or find somebody to pick up the carcass ($$$). Well of course, just spend a big ole chunk of money because you guys say that is how it is supposed to be. Suppose the owner would have preferred that, but has health problems and all their money is going to the HUMAN? You’re extremely short-sighted and even selfish to expect somebody whose circumstances change to be able to shell out a big chunk of $$$ rather than take care of themselves or their family. Evidently you people don’t see an issue with taking from a human and putting it into a dead end event. Let them take the horse to a market and get what they can for it rather than spending money they may not have any longer.

    And for Pete’s sake, just be honest, you guys aren’t arguing animal welfare, you are actually arguing animal RIGHTS! Try to hide it from people in the forum and reading comments, but as the saying about putting lipstick on a pig goes, that is what your basis is all about. They read the common denominator through your posts and it keeps coming back to the same things. We don’t need to resort to calling names, or any other tactic. For anyone seeking the reality of the issue, there are plenty of reports across the nation that support that abandoned and abused cases have risen; those reports have been provided and you haven’t acknowledged them, but plenty of folks ARE seeing them. You can ignore the GAO report – it doesn’t say what you want it to. You can say, you still have a market for a horse with no use ahead of it, but there isn’t. For every one point you guys can make, the reality is several opposing points exist. You just won’t admit it is all and you’re hoping to sway, by hook or crook, anyone who is caught unawares or sidetracked by your emotional content.

    • Robert M says:

      Cowhorse:

      You blame the 2007 US slaughterhouse closures for the decline of the equine industry, as well as the neglect and starvation of horses.

      Given that the numbers of slaughtered horses have remained steady since those closures, is it your position that we are simply not killing *enough* of them?

    • Robert M says:

      Cowhorse; you stated:

      “Your answer is always, if there’s a problem call the vet (this costs a lot of $$$), have them chemically euthanize them (more $$), either hire a backhoe to dig a hole ($$$) or find somebody to pick up the carcass ($$$). Well of course, just spend a big ole chunk of money because you guys say that is how it is supposed to be. Suppose the owner would have preferred that, but has health problems and all their money is going to the HUMAN? You’re extremely short-sighted and even selfish to expect somebody whose circumstances change to be able to shell out a big chunk of $$$ rather than take care of themselves or their family.”

      This is a favorite hypothetical example used by pro-slaughterists that attempts to suggest this is a common and widespread dilemma.

      Just a gentle reminder; owning a horse is choice.

      As I stated earlier to a previous poster, horses are large, expensive animals and nobody is obligated to purchase or breed these animals.

      If you want something inexpensive to care for and maintain, perhaps you should consider a parakeet or goldfish.

      It seems that those who complain the loudest about “personal property rights” when it comes to horses, are also the very first to want owners absolved of “personal responsibility.”

      Hmm.

  46. Barbara says:

    Cowhorse: we have supported EVERY comment with statistics. And, BTW, the GAO report has been proven to be inaccurate and they have recounted some of their statements. You are blathering once again with meaningless accusations that you can’t back. You have once again brought up the sick and infirm. We’ve already addressed that issue. Yes, sometimes we have to spend a chunk of money to take care of an old or sick animal and do the right thing. It’s much better than sending it on a journey to hell with no regard for how it’s treated. You and yours have NEVER addressed the issue of abuse and torture at the hands of the kill buyers or facility. NEVER!

    It’s our responsibility as an animal guardian to take care of it — not just dump for the highest price. We’ve addressed your comments ad nauseum so I won’t address them again here. We are still, however, waiting for answers to OUR questions. Damage to the “horse industry”? Really? The economy has damaged the horse industry, not the lack of slaughter houses. Slaughters have not decreased — once again repeating this over and over — so how has the “industry” been damaged by closing them? We are still killing 100,000 per year. Yes, horses cannot be sold for what they once brought; however, I don’t make what I used to make either. The economy sucks right now and all of us are suffering from it. I work 7 days/week doing several jobs. Sorry if the big breeder can’t sell his horse for what it was worth several years ago. That’s the market. No, you don’t need to resort to name calling but the fact is that you DO IT. Read several posts above and you’ll find it. As for the line about “animal rights”, well…they DO have rights. Sorry to tell you but they have the right to be treated humanely. They have the right to adequate food and water. They have the right to not be abused or tortured. Sorry to tell you but it’s true. I don’t hide the fact that I believe this. Just by saying this, you admit that you believe this to be wrong.

    The bottom line through all of this is what we’ve tried to relay all along: Horses are not raised for food. Slaughter is a process for food animals. Horse meat cannot be sold for food in the U.S. Horse meat is toxic. Europe is beginning to “get it” that they are getting toxic horse meat from U.S. horses sold to them from Canada and Mexico. They are starting to pull out of the market. Who will you blame then when that well of money dries up?

  47. Cowhorse says:

    Robert M: Your statements are, as have been consistent throughout the discussion, out in left field without a lick of sense. Your implication that people should have less value placed on them than the horses is very telling. That is straight out of the Animal Rights playbook. Anyone who doubts it can just go out to read quotes from Wayne Pacelle, H$U$ CEO. Along with several other Animal Rights activists. Your extremist views have been exposed for the fallacy they are for anyone to check up on.

    And typically, of course the answer to the GAO report as being flawed (gee Barbara, like this one wasn’t obviously going to come from you), the reason you would like other people to believe that report is flawed is because it doesn’t support your twisted VERSION of reality. It is one thing to lie to yourself, but to attempt to manipulate other people into following your poorly thought out logic is actually pretty comical in and of itself.

    The only reason that folks such as Robert M, Barbara, and Jan Meyers repeat that nobody answers their questions is because when they are presented with facts, reports, statistics, and real life events, they’re continuing to ignore them in the hopes they will either go away or those who can think for themselves won’t see/hear/read them. It is one thing to be passionate and sensible; it is another to be destructive. Well folks, since you haven’t been able to actually counter a single fact with anything but name calling, silliness, and worse, you’ve merely proven the point. You don’t have facts on your side.

    But consider a very strong point – IF you had been correct in that getting all plants in the U.S. closed had been beneficial to the horse industry, the market wouldn’t have been depressed far longer than the economy. Your irresponsible actions are one of the biggest, anti-horse actions to negatively impact the entire horse market. Now that your so-called “idea” has been at work, the horses are now abandoned and abused at great numbers (yes – those reports exist in EVERY STATE, whether you deny them or not) and you’ve not improved the plight of horses overall in the least. Hey, everyone makes mistakes, why aren’t you folks big enough to admit that you were wrong and start working to improve the industry as a whole.

    As for *gasp* somebody actually selling a horse and making money, so what? In case you’ve not heard of it before, that is called free enterprise. Look at every market out there, people are not in business to create a product and give it away. To even bring that up, well, I’d suggest you be sheepish about the lack of foresight to that comment, but …….

    • Robert M says:

      Cowhorse;

      I didn’t see an answer to my question in your last response.

      “Given that the numbers of slaughtered horses have remained steady since those closures, is it your position that we are simply not killing *enough* of them?”

      Do you care to respond?

    • Barbara says:

      I’m beginning to believe that you cannot read English. In simple facts, the GAO report was proven to be flawed (yes, cowhorse, it did come from me because I read the reports). The GAO has sense recanted some of its claims. This is not ME saying this — it’s in the reports. It has nothing to do with my version of reality. Why don’t you read the reports before you start bashing people?

      Yes, our statement are consistent: horses are not bred for food, horse meat is not fit for human or pet consumption, it is illegal to slaughter and sell horse meat for human consumption in the U.S., we are still slaughtering the same number of horses now as before the kill houses were shut down, there are no more abandoned or starving horses now than before the shutdown, the studies in California alone have shown that the number of abandoned and starving horses in California has decreased since the shutdown, the number of stolen horses in California has decreased since the shutdown, race horses are being taken directly from the track to kill houses without the chance of being adopted, milk mares have foals that are slaughtered for their meat or skinned alive because the “meat is sweeter” according to the EU market for it, Premarin foals are abused or killed… Should I give you more examples of things to which we have not gotten answers?

  48. Jan Myers says:

    Cowhorse….my name is spelled Jan Myers! We. Have done nothing that actually changed a thing for you horse slaughtering fools! How many times do we have to repeat that the only thing that gas changed is the location of the deed! You still have the right to send your horse to be butchered as you had here in the states a few shirt years ago! It is you that has ZERO facts to back up your claims! Not us…I am in touch with many horse advocates in Canada and guess what? They all say that abuse, neglect and starvation are alive and well even with several of the lovely slaughter plants just around the corner! We will always have the morally challenged people among us! You should know a lot about that! The outright banning of slaughter is the only way to show you that you are wrong and that we can all rise to a higher horse! And be much better off for it in the long run! Please please take off your $$$ blinders and you will finally be able to see The Truth!

  49. daphne watson says:

    And what part of closing the slaughter houses KILLED the horse market. YOu could sell any horse for over 500 before the houses were closed, with in a few months the horse market dropped slightly within a yr there was no bottom dollar and the horse market went down the drain…
    I watched a sale on RFDTV the other day, I seen TOP NOTCH horses going for less then 500. ALL older and trained. ONE set went thru a mare and foal, went for 1000 for both.
    NO matter what you ANTI’S say, slaughter SET the market for horses. I can bet you that IF the houses are allowed to open back up the horse market WILL go back up and ppl who can’t afford to feed their horses will be able to sell that horse and get enough money to feed their families.
    and yes mexico is still open and the reason why you do not see numbers increasing and you see more horses left in fields, etc, is because we do NOT want to see the horses stabed over and over, at least here in the states they get shot or captive bolt rendering them DEAD, before they are bled out. That is one reason why we see horses being turned out to fend theirselves.

  50. MaryAn K. says:

    In addition to making horsemen/women responsible for the privilege of ownership (of which I am among them), there are other means by which to address the problem of unwanted horses. The first is staggeringly simple: Don’t make so many of them! (Yea, I know, I’m preaching to the choir on this one!)

    The theory that reducing horse slaughter increases abuse and neglect is clearly not supported by the data. On its face, the data would seem to make the case that slaughter has just the opposite effect on the number of cases of abuse and neglect. There may be some truth to this because the brokers and feedlot operators who deal in slaughter horses are not known for their stewardship of the animals (to be polite). The fact is, however, that all attempts to calculate a relationship between abuse and neglect generate widely disparate values year to year which indicate that there is probably no meaningful relationship at all, or that if it exists it is insignificant compared to other factors.

    The reason this is true is undoubtedly multi-fold. The number of horses being slaughtered annually represents only 1% of the horse population, so their fate has little effect on the overall situation. Neglect is probably more dependent upon larger factors such as weather (forage and hay availability), and the state of the economy.

    Additionally, since the slaughter industry processes only horses that are in good flesh, and generally under twelve years of age and since blind horses and horses that cannot support their weight on all four legs are banned from transport, it would seem that the horses being removed from the population through slaughter are not the ones being abused and probably not the ones at highest risk of abuse or neglect.

    Finally, a market place is not an “open loop” system by nature. That is, the supply of a commodity does not remain unrelated to its demand. If there is a demand for horses of a certain type (e.g. “loose horses”), then the market will provide them. For a commodity whose supply is fundamentally unlimited, supply would be expected to follow demand and not the other way around as the “unwanted horse” theory proposes.

    In short, the theory that horse slaughter has a beneficial effect on the rate of abuse and neglect is clearly disproved by the facts. For reputable institutions to continue to depend on this theory as a justification for supporting horse slaughter is at best unjustified and irresponsible.

  51. Barbara says:

    Here are excerpts from the current International Equine Conference:

    “Horses are often shipped to Japan for slaughter overseas. Three (or more) horses are packed tightly into wooden crates, bound by wire, to be shipped in cargo transport. No food or water is provided on these long trips & horses are often injured. There is no way for them to escape in these tightly packed crates.”

    “One of the methods of killing horses in these slaughter plants is with the use of a .22 rifle, which has been shown to be ineffective & inaccurate. Horses are shot, but quickly regain consciousness, thrash around & injure themselves more as they try to stand, often enduring several minutes of pain & suffering before being re-shot (some requiring three or more shots) before death finally comes.”

    “Feedlots of horses going to slaughter have also been investigated. Documentation has show there there is a lack of fulltime staff monitoring the horses. There is a consistent lack of food & water for the horses. Piles of dead horses are often found on these lots. Horses are packed into tight spaces. Foals are born, often prematurely, & many freeze to death in cold weather conditions. Many mares miscarry their foals in these conditions.”

    “Horse Slaughter has never had a beneficial effect on Abuse, Abandonment, or Neglect. Horse Slaughter has never been anything but a brutal process. Equine neglect is influenced almost entirely by economic conditions. Slaughtering 100,000 horse a year has NOT offset the negative impact of the great recession.”

    • Barbara W. in KY says:

      Barbara , I am a different Barbara and in KY just so Vicki and others don’t get us mixed up. You and Vicki have done an outstanding job in trying to educate some that evidently don’t want the facts and the truth. KY has the worst animal protection laws in the USA and owners here that often starve their horses(and cattle)have money to care for them.
      BTW the FDA has classified horses as companion animals .
      As for wild horses they are being “Managed for Extinction” by the BLM so that our public lands can be turned over to mining and oil drilling which in the end will do more damage then the millions of cattle and sheep that are being subsidized with millions. The wild horses are now down to less than 25,000 in all the West. The 1990-91 GAO report found horses were too few to over-graze the range and ruin riparian areas. There used to be 2 million wild horses and millions of bison but the millions of cattle soon over-grazed the ranges because cattle do NOT roam and will also defecate in water . Horses will paw water and make waterholes deeper that benefits all wildlife and they break ice in the winter. Horses nip grass and don’t over-graze if they are allowed to roam and don’t pollute water with E. Coli. My father raised cattle and they suffer too when slaughtered . I have horses and have had most of my life. Wild horses are not over-popullated or feral. Paleontological and DNA studies proved Equus caballus originated in America and crossed the Bering Strait millions of years ago and were re-introduced .
      I will not be commenting further. Time to go feed my Arabs and rescued mustangs. They are my mental therapy in this messed up world, and horses are being used more all the time for both physical and mental therapy.

      • daphne watson says:

        ok there are a few things wrong with your post. FIRST off the mustangs are NOT being gathered to extinction. THERE are OVER 42,000 in the WILD, and over 40,000 in long term, short term, and sancs. So if wild horses BREAK the ice, they pray tell WHY has it been reported IN OR, that there has been horses found DEAD at FROZEN water holes? or in other states that have reported teh same thing. DEAD HORSES at FROZEN water holes. HORSE make the water holes WORSE by pawing, they may make it deeper BUT they also RUIN it with the mud they make. HORSES graze TO THE DIRT and there is PROOF that the horses do this WHERE NO cattle are at. NONE.

        and lets see the truth about slaughter- the captive bolt ENTERS the brain rendering the horse BRAIN DEAD, rendering nervous system delayed reactions. SO yes you will see horses breath, horses move, BECAUSE of the delayed response. and FUNNY that you all say a 22 will NOT work. I KNOW many many many ppl that put horses down WITH a 22 to the head. NO ONE and i mean NO ONE should tell us that we can’t slaughter horses, eat horses, do whatever. AND last time i looked the FDA DID NOT say horses are companion animals i do belive the HSUS are the ones that said that. MOST and i will say over 95%of HORSE owners (not backyard horse owners, horse owners that actually USE their horses for things)will tell you that horses are infact LIVESTOCK. They are NOT pets, they DO NOT live in your house, THEY should NEVER be treated like a spoiled kid, they should be treated humanly. AND IF slaughter is done correctly it is HUMANELY.
        just read about temple grandin. she is neither for or against slaughter of horses, what she is for is to make sure that they are processed SAFELY, and i do belive that canada has one of her designs in place and it is working very well.

  52. Butch says:

    You say

    “One of the methods of killing horses in these slaughter plants is with the use of a .22 rifle, which has been shown to be ineffective”

    Last night in the LSCB meeting a 22 rifle is the method to put down a animal That comes from Ohio State Vets reconmendation SO Barb What School are you from

    Horses are livestock there needs to be a place to Process For Food so they don’t go to waste

    There is no need to even try to talk to the AR’s they have a lack of Protein that doesn’t allow them to think clear

    • okiestorm1 says:

      So true Butch.I’am not bickering back n forth anymore,I want to get the facts out there for those that have no idea what is going on in the horse world. The plants need to be reopened and this is a fact.

      • Jan Myers says:

        Thank Goodness…that you concede that your side has failed miserably in this debate….As far as the truth…..the truth was made known by our answers to your ludicrous statements.

    • Cowhorse says:

      You guys (Butch, Okiestorm1)are right, a few posters on here are specifically animal RIGHTS, and NOT animal welfare. Despite factual reports regarding breed registries numbers drastically being reduced; the GAO report that confirms everything that has been stated about the uptick in horses being abandoned; and states having their own reporting system where they track estrays and abandonment which coincides with the increases elsewhere, the animal rights movement (see specifically Jan Meyers, Barbara, Robert M) refuses to either read the reports or even, in some cases, acknowledge their existence.

      I personally find it incredibly sad these folks are hiding behind a curtain they have personally tried to make sound as though they are for improving the quality of life for all horses. It isn’t true, but they won’t acknowledge it. A perfect example is the unintended consquences of forcing equine processing plants out of business in the U.S. Since that has happened, horses’ lives have NOT been improved. Considering the rabid attacks and downright lies from the animal rights wing, I have to consider, perhaps the increase in abandonment wasn’t as unintended as I originally thought. I didn’t think that truly people would ban together in a long-term vision to actually eliminate horse ownership from all but the very wealthy. Yet, we see these personal freedoms under attack from many quarters. Right out of the H$U$ playbook, their CEO Wayne Pacelle has been quoted many times about his personal opinion that he believes extinction of certain species, animal ownership, and even animal agriculture shouldn’t exist. Shouldn’t exist. When reading those two words, it changes the behavioral motivation of the animal rights wing. It then puts the question out there; are Barbara, Jan Meyers, and Robert M simply so deluded by people higher up the food chain of their movement that they can’t see what is right before their eyes? Or, are they actually aware of the damage they are doing and still pushing to destroy the industry even further? When reading their same tired responses about bad breeders who’ve made this whole situation exist, it is obvious that they are trying to make statistics go away. Since statistics are nothing more than impersonal numbers, they must try to minimize or ignore completely their existence. If they do not, their litany is shown to be a lie.

      Anyone wishing to truly understand the actual scope of the damage the animal rights wing has to date been allowed to do can easily see through their smoke screen. It is nothing concrete in the least. For people who support personal property rights; support animal agriculture; see the foolishness of a wasteful society; and want to understand equine welfare, that money generally lies at the root of their arguments their stance becomes very easy to see through.

      For anyone who truly wants to read open and honest dialogue on the subject, the United Horseman’s group is filled with equine industry professionals. Yes – the very people who’s livelihood depends on the welfare of horses are in that group and working towards restoring a thriving equine industry. You’ll read much from the animal rights wing that people who would actually expect to earn back even a portion of their investment are evil. They are about money, not horses. Lest they forget, and obviously they have, horses as does anything take money. It takes money to feed and care for them. You’ll see some of the most atrocious pictures of animal abuse right on the pages of various Animal RIGHTS individuals. They use a horrific photo of horses with life-threatening and painful afflictions, will ask for money to help with care and/or surgery. When in truth, the kindest thing for many of these horses would be to euthanize them. Let them go. Stop holding them up to solicit a soft hearted and well intentioned person’s money. If the animal rights wing were actually and honestly about horse welfare, they would be euthanizing the horses who are non-recoverable and suffering. They would instead be putting that time into a horse that could be recovered and rehomed. But they are not. And isn’t that actually what this argument is theoretically based on? That those horses are given homes where they are cared for, are no longer suffering? If that were honestly the case, the photos of the horses they use as their poster child would not be there. Talk about abuse. Talk about money being their impetus. Let’s just get real, the animal RIGHTS people are not and never were about bettering the animals’ condition and they still aren’t.

      • okiestorm1 says:

        Very well said and to the point, thank you and the horses thank you and United Horsemen is a wonderful group, that cares for the horses and thier owners. Thank you Cowhorse! see you at United Horsemen.

    • Barbara says:

      So Butch, it doesn’t surprise me that you have once again gotten the information wrong and placed “blame” — this is SOP for your group. You don’t fully read or comprehend what’s being presented and you jump to conclusions. What “school” did YOU go to? Did they teach you to read? I was not the author of those statements. They were made by the experts who are presenting papers at the current equine conference — which is what I presented as a “disclaimer” in the beginning of my post. If you have an issue with what is being said at the conference, do your research and take it up with the presenters.

      As far as the “meat” going to waste, as you said, nothing is wasted if it can’t be eaten! It is not “meat” for human or pet consumption. I think we’ve pounded that into the ground ad nauseum and have provided several links that prove this. if you want to eat your horse, do so. If you want to raise your horses for food for yourself and your family, do so. If you want to sell you horse to the kill buyer, go ahead. Nothing is stopping you. I’m getting very tired of everyone screaming about “rights” — you still have those rights and you can still sell your horses to slaughter.

    • Jan Myers says:

      Hey Butch…

      YOU SAY: There is no need to even try to talk to the AR’s they have a lack of Protein that doesn’t allow them to think clear

      I SAY: I am going to ignore my better judgement and get down on your level…..At least we have a brain and that is something to which Horse Eaters and their advocates cannot lay claim to ! ! :)

  53. Jan Myers says:

    Hey Horsecow….

    “You guys (Butch, Okiestorm1)are right, a few posters on here are specifically animal RIGHTS, and NOT animal welfare. Despite factual reports regarding breed registries numbers drastically being reduced; the GAO report that confirms everything that has been stated about the uptick in horses being abandoned; and states having their own reporting system where they track estrays and abandonment which coincides with the increases elsewhere, the animal rights movement (see specifically Jan Meyers, Barbara, Robert M) refuses to either read the reports or even, in some cases, acknowledge their existence.”

    1. If you want to label me a Animal Rights person..I don’t give a rip…label me all you want. I am not going to lose any sleep over it. All people have to do is read my words to know that is a freakin lie.
    2. The GAO downplayed the biggest single factor in the increase of abandonment and neglect which is the ECONOMY….Good God are you blind? Slaughter is still in place…every single one of the people that starved, neglect or abandoned their (horse—aka their responsibility) had that option available to them…They could have called a KILL BUERS to pick up their (responsibility) before it got to that point….
    3. I have read the entire GAO report…the only thing in it that is a worth a crap is the past that says we need to get off the pot and do something one way or the other…The other way of dealing with the issue is to completely BAN the the practice.
    4. I have researched, studied this issue countless hours, read reports, gone to auctions for years. I know what I get from my horse (an incredible relationship) and I know what I would never want for him and that is the cruel death of slaughter. You know what is funny…you guys are always twisting our (Animal Welfare Advocates) words around because your arguments hold absolutely no water..in fact they have huge holes in them so they could never hold water…The slaughter advocates and the slaughter industry have effectively taken MY RIGHT AWAY to sell, give or transfer my horse to anyone if I should ever need to. By having the possibility that he may end up butchered for someone rich persons food in another country. I am forced to never relinquish him……So his only option upon my death or other catastrophic live event is to be HUMANELY EUTHANIZED. Not fair to him or to me…

    “I personally find it incredibly sad these folks are hiding behind a curtain they have personally tried to make sound as though they are for improving the quality of life for all horses. It isn’t true, but they won’t acknowledge it. A perfect example is the unintended consquences of forcing equine processing plants out of business in the U.S. Since that has happened, horses’ lives have NOT been improved. Considering the rabid attacks and downright lies from the animal rights wing, I have to consider, perhaps the increase in abandonment wasn’t as unintended as I originally thought. I didn’t think that truly people would ban together in a long-term vision to actually eliminate horse ownership from all but the very wealthy.”

    1. I am not hiding behind a dang thing. I am out front with my wishes and they are to see the horse industry thrive and improve, through better treatment of horses. Once again since you seem oblivious to the fact, horses have always taken the brunt of economic down turns. AND this is the worst economic downturn since the great depression. We will always have coldhearted people in the world that care more about themselves/pocket book than about what is morally right for creatures in their care. Bring domestic slaughter back WILL NOT change that fact…..
    2. Unintended consequences were intended? Really, you believe that? Now that is funny ! !
    3. Long-term goal to make horse ownership only available to the very rich….yeah that has to be right because I am so rich now and have one……that is a bankrupt scare tactic and I find it incredible that people are actually STUPID enough to believe it.

    “Yet, we see these personal freedoms under attack from many quarters. Right out of the H$U$ playbook, their CEO Wayne Pacelle has been quoted many times about his personal opinion that he believes extinction of certain species, animal ownership, and even animal agriculture shouldn’t exist. Shouldn’t exist. When reading those two words, it changes the behavioral motivation of the animal rights wing. It then puts the question out there; are Barbara, Jan Meyers, and Robert M simply so deluded by people higher up the food chain of their movement that they can’t see what is right before their eyes? Or, are they actually aware of the damage they are doing and still pushing to destroy the industry even further? When reading their same tired responses about bad breeders who’ve made this whole situation exist, it is obvious that they are trying to make statistics go away. Since statistics are nothing more than impersonal numbers, they must try to minimize or ignore completely their existence. If they do not, their litany is shown to be a lie”.

    - You are right about our personal freedoms being under attack from many quarters..ie The patriot Act, ban on smoking in public places, breed specific laws, the collation of personal information in data bases, hundred if not thousands of other examples, but you get my point…I think, don’t you? Personal freedom does have it’s limits and should for the greater good of the majority. Wayne Pacelle has a right to his own opinion. It is only one opinion and he is not the HSUS entirely….You really think ONE MAN can change Americas love for owning animals….I think not and surely you are not that stupid. At least I would hope so.

    “Anyone wishing to truly understand the actual scope of the damage the animal rights wing has to date been allowed to do can easily see through their smoke screen. It is nothing concrete in the least. For people who support personal property rights; support animal agriculture; see the foolishness of a wasteful society; “
    - Anyone that truly wishes to understand what the Slaughtering of Horses is all about, who supports it (Farm Bureau, breeders, Breed Registries, Sue Wallis/United Horsemen and anyone else that stands to make a buck) and why (greed and the desire to have a dumping ground (easy button) for horses so they can continue to breed in a flat market. Sue Wallis has delusions of grandeur and wealth which she tries to cover up the ugliness of by using words like “humane processing”. She wants to set up a feedlot for all the “starving horses” that need homes out there. She would fool a lot of people into giving their beloved horses to her unknowing that there are going to be slaughtered. Sue’s dream of of opening a plant here in the US that is humane is laughable at best. In order to make it really humane it would not be financially feasible (Just ask Temple Grandin what she states has to be done to even remotely make it humane. The good ole boy system is a live and well in today’s world. You have Senators and Representavies that stall the Anti-slaughter bills in committee because the the large lobbying groups donate heavily to their campaigns and dare I say it?, If the SOP of politicking is in the mix there is probably a good amount of bribe money changing hands as well. So there you have it. We are fighting for our horses so they do not have to go through a horrific process just because someone deems them expendable. The Pro’s are fighting to perpetuate cruelty under the guise of helping them….What a joke ! ! ! Plus Sue and her cohorts NEVER address the fact that the FDA has banned all the drugs in food animals that are used in today’s companion horses, race horses and sport horses… I think that fact alone should be enough to pull the slaughter option off the table for good.

    “and want to understand equine welfare, that money generally lies at the root of their arguments their stance becomes very easy to see through.”

    -OMG you didn’t just say that money lies at the root of our arguments….Now that is really funny…We spend our money helping the healthy, sane and sound animals that you and the pro side try to send to be butchered….you know 92% of the horses that are sent to slaughter..Sadly we cannot help them all because the pros insist it is their “RIGHT” to over produce even though there is NO acceptable market for them. Not very good business men and women are they? We make no money off our advocacy and care of these animals, we lose it. Surely you were looking in the mirror when you made that statement.

    “For anyone who truly wants to read open and honest dialogue on the subject, the United Horseman’s group is filled with equine industry professionals. Yes – the very people who’s livelihood depends on the welfare of horses are in that group and working towards restoring a thriving equine industry. You’ll read much from the animal rights wing that people who would actually expect to earn back even a portion of their investment are evil. “

    1. The United Horsemen’s group is a 501c3 charity (how that can be astounds me) that pilfers the bank accounts of honest farmers and ranchers that give to this monstrosity in the sad hope they are right and the market will return if slaughter is brought back. Unconscionable that they hold out a false carrot to these good people but they do. They also have the big AG business people behind them who’s only goal is to increase profits.

    2. We don’t malign anyone who would like to make back a portion of their investment if it is not done through pain, cruelty and torture…If you all would help us revamp the industry and take it to higher standards it would be an industry without shame. An industry where people can hold their heads up high and feel good about themselves and what they have created. The way it is now they look selfish and short sighted at best. One has to wonder why many of the pro’s state that they would not send their horse to slaughter because they love them. If it is so humane why wouldn’t they? The fact is that it is not humane..What hypocrites ! ! And Hypocrites in the worst way ! !

    “They are about money, not horses. Lest they forget, and obviously they have, horses as does anything take money. It takes money to feed and care for them. You’ll see some of the most atrocious pictures of animal abuse right on the pages of various Animal RIGHTS individuals. They use a horrific photo of horses with life-threatening and painful afflictions, will ask for money to help with care and/or surgery. When in truth, the kindest thing for many of these horses would be to euthanize them.”
    -Again what money….You forget that it takes money to save horses from the meat man. It takes money to feed, house and treat them medically. Most of the horses saved are healthy horses (remember 92% of slaughter bound horses are healthy, sound and sane). Granted there are a few that would be better off humanely euthanized, NOT butchered. And many of them are if they are truly without hope. But if people are willingly donating to those horses in need that is their right. And no business of yours.

    “Let them go. Stop holding them up to solicit a soft hearted and well intentioned person’s money. If the animal rights wing were actually and honestly about horse welfare, they would be euthanizing the horses who are non-recoverable and suffering.”

    -They do humanely euthanize those without hope…However they do not butcher them as you would do.

    “They would instead be putting that time into a horse that could be recovered and rehomed. But they are not.”

    - LIAR..We do just that and have re-homed many thousands of good horses. That the pro’s would have slaughtered to feed the rich people in FOREIGN countries. The childish side of me really wants to break out in the song Liar, Liar: Pants on Fire ! ! LOL

    “And isn’t that actually what this argument is theoretically based on? That those horses are given homes where they are cared for, are no longer suffering? If that were honestly the case, the photos of the horses they use as their poster child would not be there. Talk about abuse. Talk about money being their impetus. Let’s just get real, the animal RIGHTS people are not and never were about bettering the animals’ condition and they still aren’t.”

    -All I can say to this BS is that it is BS…You need to research things a little more because you are clueless about the GOOD that rescues do….Far more GOOD than BAD. Which is something no one can say about your side ! ! !
    I will end this rebuttal with a comment I made in response to Trinity Lakes Ranch on The APHA page last night…

    TLR…$$$ can be very effective blinders to compassion ! ! ! I personally have not sold out nor would I ever. I watch and read all of the pro-slaughter rhetoric and the one thing that keeps sticking in my craw is “don’t push your values on us, you have no right”….In my opinion vlaues are sorely needed because the pro-slaughter agenda is severely lacking in compassion, kindness and respect for their golden geese. BTW I will mention that values are pushed on everyone, everyday of our lives. What makes the horse industry immune to being held accountable? What is wrong with improving the industry by promoting higher standards? Why do you fight so to keep an antiquated system that is so obviously inhumane? Why not rise to the challenge and try to repair the industry in positive ways instead of taking the cheap and easy way out by killing what you and others deem invaluable? I will never understand the tunnel vision of the pro-slaughter stance. The only reasonable theory I can come up is that tunnel you are looking down is lined with $$$ and that is blinding you to the reality of what you are doing and perpetuating.

  54. Monika Courtney says:

    Many people consider horse slaughter a perilous predatory industry, after they do the research to find out the truth.From the standpoint of “welfare” for horses,it is clear that slaughter has and never represents any welfare to the animals,but the agenda behind it, initiated by profit-driven individuals.
    Considering the economy,overload status of rescues,cost of horse ownership are all good incentives,but not to promote slaughter. There are alternatives,solutions other than bringing back the very inhumane practices of horse slaughter. I find it important to educate on the truth. Responsibility is one aspect that must be weighed in.Address over breeding.Consider all the industries and jobs that benefit from horses and horse ownership such as feed stores, riding clubs, boarding facilities, trainers etc.
    I started to do research on this topic and what I found was shocking. The main stream is cleverly pacified into believing slaughter is necessary to help the “poor starving or abandoned horses”… used as a propaganda gig without disclosing the truth on this When one finds out,it is obvious that no one in his right mind for the welfare of the horses, could endorse this.
    The public health hazard of adulterated meat is another aspect that is of great concern,for all consumers.Horses are not raised for human consumption,even banned from being processed into dog food. It takes efforts to create a different approach than to foster the dumping grounds and promote the continued irresponsible breeding,yet it is the only feasible solution.
    America must do better than bringing back slaughter.

  55. Cowhorse says:

    Monica Courtney; first, any good reason why you’d even bother stating humane processing creates a “dumping ground” and “irresponsible over breeding?” Since that is patently untrue, are you simply not doing research, not looking at breeding statistics? Or, worse, are you actually aware that breeding has dropped dramatically, but you are helping to push a dishonest agenda forward?

    Anyone who is even remotely interested, they don’t need to even be very good at research, can find out that the major breed associations have reported significant drops in breeding reports and foal registrations. Since that is indisputable, why continue to state something that is so outright wrong?

    When a person states information that is directly a lie to the actual happenings, it places all information as a “suspect” category. In other words, if people intentionally lie about a part of their response, they’ve lied about other parts. If you, Monica, have been lied to, take a little time to research your numbers. You can look at the three major stock horse breeds which are the American Quarter Horse Assoc (AQHA), American Paint Horse Assoc (APHA), and the Appaloosa Horse Club (ApHC). Their reports will prove breeding numbers have dropped. It is my hope that people will look into those statistics for themselves and realise the “evil breeder” litany is a farce.

    Monica, you’ve been duped by the animal rights agenda.

  56. Robert M says:

    Ironic. “Cowhorse” pronouncing anyone else ‘duped’ —

    If it weren’t for the reasonably good spelling and grammar, I would think that “Cowhorse” is the Duchess of ‘Dupedom’ herself, Sue Wallis.

    The protests appear to be directly from her playbook of ‘How To Deflect the Truth About Horse Slaughter”

    • daphne watson says:

      hmmm the truth about horse slaughter? lets see the truth: it can be done humanly, THERE IS NOTHING wrong with utilizeing a horse, ITS THE OWNERS CHOICE , horses are killed via captive bolt, enters the brain, rendering it BRAIN DEAD, horse meat is NOT EVIL, 99% of the drugs that are given to horses CAN NOT be found in the meat, and the other 1% needs to be researched MORE instead of just going off of supeculation. TRUTH that there are thousands of horses starving and have NO WHERE TO GO, owners that may NOT have the money to bury horse and want to get back what they have put into that horse, TRUTH that some anti slaughter ppl are just plan NUTS that want to CONTROLL everything you do with YOUR HORSE. get it, its YOUR HORSE, you want to slaughter it, so be it, you want to bury it so be it, YOU WANT TO EAT IT so be it. NO ONE should tell you what you Can and can’t do to your horse with the expection of abuse and neglect.

      • Robert M says:

        Daphne:

        Ms Wallis would give you an “A” for this response. It is a concise and to-the-point summary of the false information she and her supporters continue to assert.

        And by the way, just an FYI: there is absolutely NOTHING stopping you from eating your horse now or even after a US slaughter ban is in place.

        Bon Appetit!

      • daphne watson says:

        sorry to dissapoint you but this is the truth that I HAVE SEEN myself. I research these things, I DO NOT and i repeat DO NOT follow ANYONE. I DO my own research for the topic , and I have for over 10 yrs. EVERYTHING i have wrote is nothing but the truth. and well duhhhh anyone can eat a horse, BUT you are ALL TRYING TO take that right away from us who WANT TO and trying to take that RIGHT we have to send that horse to slaughter. NO ONE should care what happens TO YOUR OWN horses, no one BUT YOU. Don’t want to send yours to slaughter, fine, BUT DON”T tell the guy down the rd he can’t, and by shutting down thehouses and TRYING to shut down the borders is DOING JUST THAT.

      • Robert M says:

        Uh huh.

        If you believe all that, then you’re going to love the latest piece of witless commentary by your leader titled “Killer Horse Buyers are Heroes and Saviors”

        Truly, I could not make this up.

      • daphne watson says:

        i have read it, and yes kill buyers are the unseen heros, becauase they will give an out for that horse that no one wants

      • Robert M says:

        Yes, ‘kill-buyers’ are right up there with Mother Theresa…

        I find the pro-slaughter arguments on this editorial the absolute best way to expose the pro-slaughter’s illogical, callous, and unsupportable positions.

        They are truly their own worst enemy. ;-)

  57. Barbara says:

    Slaughter is NOT humane euthanasia for the horse. “The captive bolt is not a proper instrument for the slaughter of equids, these animals regain consciousness 30 seconds after being struck, they are fully aware they are being vivisected.”

    ~ Dr. Lester Friedlander, DVM & former Chief USDA Inspector ~

    Daphne: It’s amazing that you can’t come up with anything new to say. You’ve been parroting the same phrases over and over for weeks and we’ve shot all of them down. When will you learn? It’s getting very old and tiresome reading your rantings about rights, eating horse meat, etc., that you keep repeating — and, oh yes, “humane” slaughter. There is nothing humane about what’s going on and how anyone can want it to continue is beyond me. I won’t address your other rantings here because all you need to do is scroll up a few pages and you will find the answers to everything you’ve mentioned from me and everyone else.

    • daphne watson says:

      wonder why he is a FORMER inspector. look let me take a bolt and shoot it into your brain and see if you wake up after 30 seconds. I HIGHLY doubt you will. WHY because the PENATRATING BOLT enters the brain rendering the animal brain dead. MAYBE we need to keep saying over and over because you will never get it .
      I have worked at a multiuse slaughter house, I have seen the PENATRATING captive bolt KILL horses, cattle, etc.
      IF its not a intruament to put a horse down with then WHY do 95%of the states say the equipment to put a horse down is a gun, chemical injection OR a captive bolt. HUMMMMM guess its good enough for 95% of the STATE vets.

      • Barbara says:

        Daphne: What a ridiculous statement! Have you ever changed jobs? Maybe he is a “former” inspector because he believes he can do more good and get the truth out there by resigning! So many people who are “former” government employees get out for just that reason. I won’t address the captive bolt issue; we’ve already spoken to that. You worked at a slaughter house? I often wonder what kind of person purposely wants to work at a place full of pain and death. No wonder you have lost your soul!

      • daphne watson says:

        PER COLLEGE requirement I had to work at a slaughter house. IF you had bothered to ask, you would have found that out, BUT instead you SPOUT off that I purposely worked there. UMM WRONG. I HAD i repeat HAD to work there. This type of house was a MUTLIUSE house. 1 week I had to help at the kill box, I have seen horses DIE INSTANTLY with a pentrating captive bolt, I have seen it with cattle, I have watch them use an eletric prod type thing to kill sheep, hogs, goats, etc. The next week I had to help at the next stage . etc. For 2 months I had to work at each station. I have SEEN IT ALL, did I cry when a horse came in NOPE because you CAN”T have emotions when you do this. You can’t let your emotions say ahhh poor horse, when ITS NOT YOUR HORSE to worry about.
        This is what I don’t understand and NEVER WILL. THEY are NOT your horses, SO why do you all care what the OWNER does. WORRY about your OWN horses, NOT those of others that CHOSE to place that horse in a kill pen.

      • Robert M says:

        Quote by Daphne:

        “This is what I don’t understand and NEVER WILL. THEY are NOT your horses, SO why do you all care what the OWNER does. WORRY about your OWN horses, NOT those of others that CHOSE to place that horse in a kill pen.”

        This pretty much sums up the mentality of the pro-slaughter contingent, now doesn’t it?

        They ARE absolutely mystified why anyone CARES. Well said, Daphne.

      • Barbara says:

        Regardless of why you worked there (and I don’t care!), Daphne, you admitted yourself that you felt no emotion because they weren’t “YOUR HORSES”! This is an unbelievably cold statement but it doesn’t surprise me. So, you basically don’t give a damn about anyone animal unless you own it. You don’t care about those suffering from unspeakable acts of cruelty because you don’t own them! I can tell you’ve gone to the “dark side” along with “Slaughterhouse Sue” and the others who don’t care about anything but the almighty dollar! The suffering that goes on is none of their concern. Apparently, not yours either. Why do I care about other people’s animals? Because I have compassion for living creatures and believe that they should be treated humanely and with kindness if we are going to be their guardians. If I see someone abuse their animal, I will stop it. Would you not step in to stop someone from abusing her child because it’s not YOURS? Do animals not feel pain and suffering as do humans? What you describe as your behavior borders on sociopathic tendencies. Having worked in a slaughter house should give you even more reason to be against it!

      • Barbara says:

        Thank you, Robert! Amazing, isn’t it?

        And Daphne, don’t go into yet another nonsensical diatribe about comparing humans to animals. I expect this will be your next “snappy comeback”. Read what I wrote first — I am comparing pain and suffering of living creatures.

      • daphne watson says:

        yes horses can feel pain, BUT THEY CAN”T think like we do. THEY CAN”T say oh shit im gonna get killed next. THEY CAN”T think like that.

        TO place horses OVER humans is NUTS and one should NEVER ever do that.

      • Barbara says:

        Daphne: I am beginning to doubt that you can even read much less comprehend what you read. First, horses have a brain; therefore, they “think”. They may not “reason”, but they do think! Second, I never said anything about putting horses over humans and I explicitly mentioned to NOT go there; however, you did, in fact, “go there” in your response.

        I agree with Robert: You are not worth debating and it is pointless to try to get you to change your mind. You are too far gone. I sincerely hope that that “ranch” of 70 acres you spoke about will not tire of taking care of your horses after you can no longer do it and will, instead, send them to slaughter. Nothing about this process if humane and kind. It is YOU who is living in a fairy tale world!

      • daphne watson says:

        umm no barbara NOT a pathalogical liar that would be my ex step mother. Me i tell the truth and nothing but that. I DO NOT lie about anything I WRITE. I was brought up NOT TO LIE. and I instill that in my children.
        And the 70acres is MY FATHERS LAND. ummm if I can’t take care of my horses, then he will, WHen the day comes he would pass away, (hopefully not anytime soon), my fathers land will become mine and my sisters. so sorry to once again dissapppoint you I WILL ALWAYS have a way to take care of my horses no matter what.
        ANd I HIGHLY doubt that I will not be able to take care of my horses, because I will ALWAYS have the money becuase I have a trust set up for my horses

      • Barbara says:

        Daphne: Make sure that you know to whom your comments are directed re: “pathological liars”. Once again, read!! Regarding your 70 acres of land, your logic is once again, flawed. If your father passes, it goes to you and your sister? I believe that I asked what would be done when YOU could no longer take care of your horses. So that leaves you out of the picture and just your sister remains! Try to follow the story!! But, as you said, I shouldn’t really care, now should I since they’re NOT MINE to care about!! In spite of that, I hope they NEVER go to slaughter!

      • daphne watson says:

        and IF YOU have read it , i stated that my horses have TRUST set up, so no matter what happens to me, my horses will always have a home and be taken care of . READ WOMEN READ

      • Jan Myers says:

        daphne watson says:
        September 30, 2011 at 7:43

        “am wonder why he is a FORMER inspector. look let me take a bolt and shoot it into your brain and see if you wake up after 30 secondsI HIGHLY doubt you will. WHY because the PENATRATING BOLT enters the brain rendering the animal brain dead. MAYBE we need to keep saying over and over because you will never get it.”

        daphne–you are right we would be dead because our brains are located at the front of our skull just like a cows is…Horses are not, added with the intense flight response it makes render the captive bolt ineffective in stunning Horses.

  58. Monika Courtney says:

    Well said Robert M. Any forum the pro-slaughter side takes on, ends up exposing their unsubstantiated views, painting a picture that does not reflect the reality, period. Kill buyers are some of the most notoriously known animal abusers. Dismissing those who expose the violations and cruelty on the auction blocks as animal rights terrorists just shows again the weak retreat tactics of finger pointing and evasive name-calling. There is plenty of video footage and evidence on the contrary of this “pretty” picture that some paint here trying to make believe that horse slaughter is a necessary evil.
    The demoralizing effects on those who worked in such hellholes have been another proven factor of the allover ill picture. Health hazards of tainted meat is a fact. How will they dismiss this one ? The credibility of pro-slaughter is hampered with lies and deception, no one on our side has been duped, we work to expose the truth backed up with facts, investigations and real circumstances. For the pro-slaughter’s motto: Why tell the truth, when a lie will do… I have to agree.
    Some slaughter advocates are acting as though the American Horse Slaughter Prevention Act is now law and that we suddenly have a problem due to a lack of a US-based horse slaughter industry.
    But they fail to take into consideration that US horses still go to slaughter. Your friendly neighborhood kill buyers are still doing business at the auctions and 134,059 US horses went to slaughter in Mexico and Canada two years ago.
    Those numbers really aren’t that different from the number of horses slaughtered per year in recent years.
    The American Quarter Horse Association (AQHA) talks about “unwanted horses”; but it makes its intentions to increase breeding to prevent a “horse shortage” very clear. At the 2008 AQHA Convention, Bill Brewer stated:
    “Now our challenge becomes looking at ways to introduce an ‘equine economic stimulus package’ that will boost registration numbers so we don’t have a horse shortage in a few years.”
    There is a certain amount of hypocrisy on the part of the AQHA when they speak about needing slaughter to prevent horse abuse then stating they intend to put more horses on the ground.
    According to the article “Leading Indicators” in the January issue of Equus Magazine (part 1 part 2) the AQHA has boosted their registration numbers: 140,000 Quarter Horses were registered in 2008, which is up from 135,787 in 2007. It seems to me that if there is a horse overpopulation, the AQHA is contributing to it.
    Another interesting fact relating to the AQHA is the bill in North Dakota calling for a “study” on horse slaughter. The man who introduced this bill, Representative Rod Froelich, is a quarter horse breeder.
    You can read more about the AQHA’s breeding practices here. It appears that selling to the slaughter market is a profitable side business for Quarter Horse breeders, which might explain why some are fighting so hard to keep the horse slaughter industry alive.
    The AQHA and American Veterinary Medical Association (AVMA) claim that horse rescues are at full capacity and can take no more horses, yet in a recent article appearing in AZ Central there is a rescue mentioned that is at about 50% capacity. I’d be willing to bet that there are others.
    The AQHA and AVMA argue that slaughter is needed in the US again because it can be “regulated” to ensure that the process is “humane.” But information from the US Department of Agriculture under the Freedom of Information Act shows otherwise in this press release (warning, the images are graphic) and in this article. http://www.kaufmanzoning.net/nov24/pressrelease.pdf

    A question I’d like to ask the AVMA is how they can consider horses being transported to slaughter with broken legs and eyes gouged out (this is done to “unruly” horses apparently) to be “humane and well regulated”.
    The AQHA and AVMA have been saying that slaughter is necessary for horse welfare for many years now. Polls have shown that most Americans don’t approve of horse slaughter and would prefer to find another solution to the so-called problem. The reality is that the pro-slaughter side is quick to point out a problem, but only offer slaughter as a solution.
    Those opposed to slaughter tend to offer real solutions – a case in point is Madeline Pickens offering land to allow the wild horses that our government has in its holding facilities a place to roam free. Why is it that our side seems to be all about solutions? One would think that with the money and resources the pro-slaughter side has that they could also step up to the plate with an alternative to slaughter, but they fail to do so. No new ideas have come from the AQHA or the AVMA. For solutions that truly are for the horses not the “industry”… contact me on facebook.

  59. Barbara says:

    http://rtfitch.wordpress.com/2011/09/30/desperate-wyoming-horse-eater-shows-her-burro-in-illogical-and-inhumane-rant/

    It’s amazing to me that someone can be so illogical as to think that slaughter is an “out” for horses! Maybe it’s also an “out” for ignorance and stupidity.

    • Barbara says:

      Daphne: There you go again — spouting off about rights. No one has taken anyone’s right away to sell their horse to slaughter. Why do you keep pounding this issue? I have feelings because I am compassionate and care about suffering animals. You have turned blind eye against what has been proven over and over about how the horses suffer on the way to and during the slaughter process. You simply refuse to believe it. Iceland? I don’t care. They can raise their horses for food if they want. We are not opposing ANYONE raising their horses for food. You just don’t get it, do you? We keep saying this and you keep ranting the same things over and over. Rights are not being taken away, people are free to eat their own horses, people are free to sell their horses to any market, period! I live in a fairy tale? Believe me, if this were a fairy tale world, there would not be so much pain and suffering that these animals go through at the hands of so-called “human” beings. Slaughter is “needed”? Sorry, but NO, IT IS NOT needed. What is needed is people to stop producing babies and then dumping them to make money. Slaughter is not an answer to overpopulation.

      • daphne watson says:

        not taking away our rights? YES YOU are. we are trying to pass a bill to allow horses to be slaughtered in the US, You are all trying to pass a bill to BANN ANY horses from being shipped, sold, processed, etc for slaughter, RIGHT THERE is taking away the rights of us to do with what we want. yes you can still salughter your horse, BUT your bills that are in congress up against the pro slaughter bill is trying to take AWAY our right to sell, transport, ship etc ANY horse for slaughter. that right there is TAKING AWAY our rights to do with what we please with our horses. HORSES are not pets, horses are NOT compainions, yes you can treat them like that, If thats what you want FINE, but DON”T try to take away the rights of horse owners by trying To BANN horse slaughter for good.

  60. Monika Courtney says:

    In May of this year, a big expose campaign on Baker has shocked
    the nation. The reality of horse slaughter and the violations of kill buyers are evident here. Last May, I wrote to the state of Ohio and amongst many other Americans expressed my outrage:

    While I appreciate the reply I received – thank you Commissioners to take the time to respond – it is once again revolting how a system supposedly put in place in different branches to deal with different issues, to govern different areas and to address different problems and violations has to once again DIG up the one who HAS authority over this mess.
    Sugarcreek is notoriously known across America as a primal chaos of abominable suffering – yet Baker happily continues to shock the nation with his profiteering, callous conduct and unacceptable outfit.

    Ohio will become a spot on the map which equine folks will identify as representing archaic and ignorant values towards decent humane animal welfare standards. Is it a wonder ? Some of the worst puppy mills are in this state.
    Please take action and contact the “new” contact. The lapse finger pointing continues. One can wonder, if the prosecutor’s office would show more interest, if it was a private person, not a “corporation”…. livestock operation…. surely those poor horses would benefit, if prosecutors were to remember their duties in a combined effort against such outrageous cruelty. If the Dept. of Agriculture in Ohio fails to address the urgency of their licensing and revoking policies such as with Sugarcreek Auction with better oversight, inspections and regular assessments, then a higher instance ought to get involved. Clearly, there exists a grave lack of concern by either the Dept. of Agriculture, or the legal jurisdiction in this area.
    This is unacceptable by all means. Amendment of existing ineffective codes and implementation of stricter enforcement to ensure the prevention of such profound violations must no longer delay, whilst horses suffer unspeakable pain and neglect at the hands of Leroy Baker.
    They must hear from us. Demand change. Then feel free to contact Ohio media to expose this – as they are the tool for public pressure. Share Sugarcreek on your facebook page. Contact the press and send notes to the tourist offices to let them know your disgust with Ohio’s stone age mentality.
    ————-
    On Scenic Route 39 in Ohio, amongst enticing sounding villages, there is a veiled, abominable place where they sells horses.
    Yet, the horrors one discovers, reeking of neglect, cruelty and death, is one experience so haunting, the name Sugarcreek echoes the resemblance of abysmal wickedness. Far from a romantic Amish impression… the images out of Sugarcreek Livestock Auction have sent disturbing shock waves across America.

    Below please find my letters on Sugarcreek. This alert was sent out nationwide yesterday. I ask that you step up the plate and stop this man from operating this hellish lot. The time is now. The bureaucratic evasiveness must stop, and new priorities be set. It is truly despicable such suffering is taking place within your jurisdiction. Americans across the nation are calling on you to stop Sugarcreek and revoke his license.
    Enough evidence of his violations and horrid treatment of horses has been documented and is available to you. Make Sugarcreek a place that lives up to its name and do your job to hold Sugarcreek accountable on animal cruelty, neglect and abuse charges.

    Thank you for your time.
    Monika Courtney, Colorado
    ———————————————————————-
    Subj: Update – Ohio “matter”

    Please see my letter to prosecutor below, Response on Sugarcreek. Scroll down.
    Thanks.
    I hope this man gets shut down. He owes over $ 160’000 in fines… and still is not revoked his license for his hellish auction block. Additional contacts to send your thoughts are in this link :
    http://tuesdayshorse.wordpress.com/2011/03/15/take-action-for-sugarcreek-auction-horses-with-animals-angels/

    In this link you will see a photo of the “daily routine” at Sugarcreek….. horses dying from pure ignorance.
    Monika Courtney
    —————————–
    http://www.ohioattorneygeneral.gov/Contact
    Sept. 30, 2011
    To whom it may concern: Recent communication from Jeremiah Johnson, see below, indicated of the ongoing investigation on the Sugarcreek Horse Auction. I and many others would like to know as how he can continue his operation despite of severe violations, did he pay his fines, if not, how your state allows the continuation of his auction business, and what the outcome other than assessing a fine on his violations is: a) Are there new implementations with respect to animal welfare, b) what is the assurance and oversight necessary to ensure no animals suffer as in the past, c) and what is the latest status on this case which shocked the nation in May of 2011 ?

    See email from Jeremiah Johnson below.

    Sincerely,

    Monika Courtney
    ———————————————–
    Subj: Re: Response email “Your Policy” Sugarcreek

    The county commissioner, myself and our local senator have been in consistent contact with the investigators and they will be at the sale tomorrow to investigate so we are working on the issue.

    • daphne watson says:

      oh yes lets bring in leroy baker shall we. lets see, yes his sale barn sucks, BUT he is just the owner. he should NOT be held accountable for the horses that are brought into his barn injuried etc.
      DID you also know that leroy has a system. back to the farm, kill pen, and ranch pen? back to the farm horses go to his farm where he will try to resale them to private buyers, kill pens are well you know, and ranch pen are horses that most times are reg. stock that he sends out west for resale.
      I know him personnaly, he IS NOT a bad person, just running a business andmaking money

      • Monika Courtney says:

        Baker is a classic example. You may try to continue misrepresenting the goods Daphne for all you want. You are not only exaggering, you just remember big, whatever suits your know-it-all double-crossing and dishonest BS. You seem to have spun so many yarns to build your low self-esteem that you seem to believe your own lies. Next, you will swear on a stack of bibles, that your rubbish is the truth, when all around you realize your lack of truth, facts and reality.
        You are the ultimate manipulator and won’t budge, mixing a little ray of truth into your cocktail of BS to attempt credibility. You see, it is virtually impossible to respect a pathological liar, or relate to one or respect one. You give incomplete information, which is just as bad. And now you act like a horse communicator – they all must have told you that being slaughtered is a nice field trip to heaven, didn’t they ? You will not steal our dignity nor hamper our determination to end horse slaughter. The pro side is filled with a disproportionate number of BS liars, telling all kinds of lies, because they are in a business of constant rejection, which creates the need for them to rely on deception, myths and rhetoric. You are like an actor, changing your tune to whatever suits your mission – embellishing it with yet more creative ways to paint a picture that does not exist. You stick to your story even if there is plenty of evidence to the contrary. Masters at sabotaging, lying is the work of shameless, toxic fanatics, who are like summer colds, hard to get rid of.

  61. daphne watson says:

    barbara thats right I leave the emotion CHECKED at the door, because EMOTIONS SHOULD NOT and i repeat SHOULD NOT have a say in what you do. NOW i do NOT like horses that are abused or neglected, and Yes I have called the HS on a few horse owners, I am an ohio reins volunteer and take what i have very seriously, I do help those horses that have been abused, BUT when it comes to that owner wanting to send THEIR horses to slaughter, so be it, or that owner that wants to sell THEIR horses so be it. I do NOT cry because i see a horse being slaughtered, I DO NOT cry because I see a horse at a sale barn. THEY ARE not my horses. IT IS NOT for you or ANYONE to CRY because someone sent their horses to slaughter, ITS THEIR right as a horse owner TO SEND that horse there. THEIR RIGHT.
    IF you all would STOP letting emotions run how you think, then maybe you would see what we do. that slaughter is NEEDED, YOU CAN”T save all the pretty ponies. YOu all live in a fairy tale land where the horses fart rainbows and talk.
    THEY are NOT your horses, and YOU SHOULD NOT, NO ONE SHOULD tell a horse owner what they can or can’t do with their horse, (unless they are abusing or neglecting them) and sending them to slaughter or a sale barn is NOT abuseing them or neglecting them.
    SHoot I wonder what you think about iceland? YOu do know that they have 2 herds. one reg. herd for riding and one herd TO EAT. Or didn’t you know that. HORSES are one of the main staples in iceland. OH GOSH wait you would CRY and have tears because they kill and eat their horses. MIND you that they have TWO different herds. ONE strickly for eating and one strickly for raising horses to RIDE and show.

    • Robert M says:

      Daphne;

      Since you have already shared that you are completely mystified why anyone should care about the welfare of animals they do not own — any response to you at this point seems moot.

      Have a nice day.

      • Monika Courtney says:

        Dear Robert, I agree with you. Please quit wasting your time on the person who will not be open to any other views but her own tunnel – vision – If you’d like to support our efforts, please contact me on facebook. Our campaign gains constant momentum as we educate those who buy the bile of the brainwash attempts such as some in this thread do. Thanks.

      • Barbara says:

        Monika: You’re right. We are wasting out time on this thread. There are only a few pro-slaughter posters on here and one is obviously nuts! She also posts her rantings on the United Horsemen’s site and they are no different.

        And, BTW: To those of you who constantly bash the nonprofits, as they do on the UH site, UH is also a nonprofit!

    • Jan Myers says:

      daphne…Your words are your greatest enemy..you have shown yourself to be thoughless, unkind and down right incapable of compassion. I am a vet tech and have euthanized dogs,cats, rabbits, guniea pigs etc. I have done it too many times to count…I never once checked my emotions at the door. It was hard to do but do it I did because they were suffering. Ocassionally we had to euthanize a perfectly healthy pet for behavior problems..I refused to participate. Anyone that can check their emotions at the door of a slaughter house is a person devoid of them. I truly feel sorry for you.

      • Barbara says:

        Thank you, Jan!! Obviously, Daphne is incapable of any compassion for anything that doesn’t “belong” to her. I have also been a vet tech and it never became easy to put down an animal, regardless of the reason. I refused to put down a healthy animal and we were allowed that decision. There were some techs who were so calloused to the process that they actually made “fun of me” for crying at times but I always said that if I were to ever become “unemotional” about killing an animal, I would certainly leave the profession. (I no longer do that work but that wasn’t the reason for my leaving.)

        And Daphne: You’re telling ME to read? Good goddess, are you kidding. You haven’t comprehended anything we’ve said. You have a trust fund! Well, good for you little girl! I hope it lasts throughout the life of your animals because leaving your portion to your sister may not work out the way you want. After all, to quote you, they are NOT HER HORSES — why should she care about them?!

      • daphne watson says:

        im sorry if you don’t like it that I don’t use emotions. I CHECK ThEM at the door. I DO NOT let emotions RUN how or what i feel. IF i see a deer that got hit on the rd, UMMM i see it as meat. If I see a deer that is injuried because of a stupid hunter that didn’t finish the job, I do it for them, If i see a horse that is a body score of 2 or less, I don’t cry, I get pissed off, If i see a horse enter a slaughter house, I see a horse that could have a problem, I don’t ask i don’t pry. IT was that owners choice to send it there.
        I DID cry when i had to watch my sisters, and my dads mare put down, i cried when i seen my friends rodeo bull break his leg. BUT I DO NOT cry because some horses are sent to a slaughter house.
        and you must NOT READ very well do ya. I SAID i have a trust set up for my horses, so IF i die, then the trust takes over their care. THey are NOT to be sold, they are NOT to be put down unless needed, they will be taken care of for life. The trust doesn’t take affect until I pass away and my sister required by the trust and the law (court order- will) the horses have to be taken care of for life.the land will be pplaced in hers and my name, doesn’t matter who owns the land, if i pass my horses will ALWAYS have a home no matter what happens,because there will ALWAYS be money to take care of them.
        and LITTLE GIRL? HA HA HA HA HA oh gosh don’t make me laugh to hard. little girl gosh I love it. I CALL MY 11 yr daughter a LITTLE GIRL. but thanks.
        as a vet asst. I have seen many horses, dogs, cats, put down, I DO NOT let emotions control what i think or act. This weekend I will be shooting and stuffing my freezer with a goat that my daughter raised for 4h that could not go because of giving a medicine. Now his withdrawl period is over, he will be shot. I WILL LOOK him in the eye, place the gun to his head and pull the trigger. one shot, Will thank the lord above and the goat for giving his life to feed my family. WILL i cry HELL NO, will i get emtionally HELL NO. Why because I DO NOT let emotions run my life. Unlike most of you.

        You see a horse and say OMG how could that owner do that, or cry because you watch a video of a horse getting shot, or a horse in a sale barn. that my dears are EMOTIONS and SHOULD NOT run how you think.
        You should NOT be concerned about what another HORSE person does with their HORSE unless they are not feeding it. Worry about the ones you have or the ones that are starving. STOP trying to take owners rights from them, by trying to BAN the shipping, processing, sales, transport, of horses for slaughter. and YES my dears that is what you are all trying to do, TAKE OUR RIGHTS AWAY FROM US AS HORSE OWNERS.

      • Barbara says:

        Yes, Daphne, I did read that you have a trust fund set up. Let’s hope it never runs out of money or that no one takes part of it “off the top”. You said that your horses will NEVER be put down “unless needed”. Who will decide when it’s “needed”? According to you and all the rest of the pro-slaughter people, healthy young horses NEED to be put down — they represent 98% of those going to slaughter so you can’t debate that! As far as my calling you a “little girl”, I was not referring to chronological age, but mental age and maturity, so don’t pride yourself! As for your killing your daughter’s 4-H goat, that’s your right. As for you bragging about how you will look it in it eyes when you pull the trigger, that just shows your true, sadistic colors. No one is fooled — each time you open your mouth, you support our side even more! Keep talking — it helps our cause!

  62. NO ONE has the right to abuse animals and torture them to death. In Colonial times, it was legal in this country to KILL a disobedient child. Well, children and animals are no longer chattel. It’s time for the pro-slaughter people to EVOLVE.

  63. STOP BREEDING, you mental midgets. That is where the “excess” horses come from. Then, start CARING for your horses properly and they will not be injured and broken down. Anyone who knows Daphne from Fb knows it is a waste of time trying to reason with her. Only 1% of our horses go to slaughter every year. It is not the answer to the overpopulation problem. Limiting BREEDING is. I saw my fist “slaughter” auction in 1963. I thought Americans would have evolved by now but I guess we are still Neanderthals.

  64. Brenda Lee says:

    @Daphne here we are again. I didn’t take the time to read ALL of your rants, because I have read them all before. I would however, like to comment on just this last post of yours.

    If you remember, I to asked how old you where, during one of our debates, because I to wondered how old you were, due to your comments. You do come across as immature and somewhat naive, at best.

    You claim, that you are not emotional.. Are you kidding me?? Your rants are full of emotions, just not in the normal healthy place. You sound like you’re mad at the world. Because they are standing up against, what you Aggi people call, your rights?? Women use to be chattel, and abused, neglected and used up as well. That was your husbands right to do that, after all you are his property. (I will note here not ALL men are that way).

    I have always found it funny, that those that would “Steal” become irate when someone steals from them… Those that would tell lies, would also become irate, when someone lies to them. Likewise, those that would disrespect and abuse another beings rights, become irate, when they think their rights, have been disrespected and violated. I find that a littler amusing, and entertaining at best. Daphne, I have always found you to be amusing and entertaining at best.

    Daphne Watson, thinks that the BLM hung the moon, so do I need to say more.. I have a question for you Daphne. BLM, is know to invade, and take property from American Citizens without proper authority. If you happen to be a victim of this agency, what would you do?? Would you want someone to help you??? NOW, that IS an example of YOUR rights being invaded, and disrespected…

  65. Brenda Lee says:

    @Daphne, before you even go there and say, that the BLM doesn’t do this or that, check this link out… http://forum.treasurenet.com/index.php?topic=391909.0

  66. Cowhorse says:

    Goodness, the typical posters against everything accept what they deem appropriate are sure out in force today. The ironic thing, you still haven’t actually provided real answers to real-life dilemas. You are all to easily side tracked into name calling, stating statistics that disprove your claims don’t exist even when they’re provided to you, and attempting to create a blog where the message gets lost in juvenile antics.

    Brenda Lee tries to discredit people as being immature and naive as she attempts to play at pop psychology. Brenda Lee, your distraction with making personal attacks doesn’t gain either support or credibility. Try to stay on track.

    Catherine Ritlaw, “STOP BREEDING you mental midgets.” Now this one was very funny. Gee Catherine, you refer to OTHERS as mental midgets, yet you’ve been unable to grasp the reduction of breeding by responsible breeders. If you had read the statistics, understood what they meant, and realise that BLM horses are the truly exploding population as opposed to the professional breeding programs you would certainly have never made that comment. Luckily, responsible breeders understand that if they were to completely “stop” breeding, many of the performance bloodlines would be lost. That is exactly the type of statement that HSUS CEO, Wayne Pacelle, has made. So Catherine, why not be honest with everyone – if you believe in “stopping” altogether, then you aren’t for welfare of animals, you are actually for the extinction. Here I must insert a bit of humor though, Catherine, your statement could also be taken to stop the human population of mental midgets.

    Comically enough, there are still some of the typical responses that seem to be very confused about the difference in animal welfare, which I believe we can all agree on is the correct direction for animals, versus animal rights. The extreme viewpoint of completely stopping the humane processing is not about humane handling and treatment, it is far more animal rights. When people support the restoration of equine processing plants within the U.S., they are not saying to make those plants as inefficient and dangerous as possible. Why would they? That is a completely opposite track for any business model; it is in the company’s best interests to see that the plants are designed for maximum efficiency and maximum safety of both animals and humans. It is in the buyer’s best interest to make sure they are able to keep the plant operating by taking care of the animals. Any person in business actually understands they must protect their entire investment; but, there again we see some of the usual suspects posting that isn’t the case. Any reasonable person will see that outright fallacy of such claims since it is a business operation.

    But the funniest of all was Brenda Lee’s use of the phrase, “…you Aggi people…” Ha, ha, ha. Really, Brenda Lee? If you are incapable of comprehending all the ways that agriculture, including animal agriculture, benefit your life then you shouldn’t be debating any issue that is relative to agriculture. Should you care to learn, there are multiple by-products used in every day life that stem from agriculture. Just so you understand a few, I will rename some. Do you use face cream, tooth paste, human vaccine, anti-freeze, or drive on asphalt? If you use any one or combination of, then you are using animal by-products. Do you think those products magically appear or are pulled out of a hat? They aren’t. Those by-products come from animals that are processed. Yes, some of the very things you couldn’t live without are a benefit of the very thing you’ve stated you want to eliminate. That makes absolutely NO sense. But then, when considering the complaints of the anti-just about everything gang, the entire argument is much more a house of cards.

    • vicki says:

      Cowhorse, thank you for your assessment of the posters on this site. Let’s get down to the issues. Please answer these questions.

      1) If you are in favor of bringing horse slaughter back to US soil, who is going to pay for a national passport system? Surely you don’t expect to shove a system down the throats of horse owners so that the owners of 2% of the horse population can dump their horses and expect them to pay for it. Have you thought of the government administrative costs to the tax payers for such a system? Slaughter supporters are always saying they don’t want any government regulations but it is quite obvious that you don’t realize the amount of regulation and taxpayer costs horse slaughter will bring.

      2) Have you thought of who is going to pay for litigation? History has proven over and over again that the plants do not follow regulations. When they are fined, they will have you in court. That cost falls on taxpayers. Have you thought of the drain on government and local officials that are required to ensure the plants are in compliance and the resources needed to accomplish this? Dallas Crown was fined 29 times in a short period and requested separate trials for each violation. The town wanted to shut them down just on the wastewater violations and of course, they went to court and just about bankrupted the town. Have you thought of the cost to tax payers to clean up the environmental mess that is inherent with horse slaughter plants? Again, if you try to get them to pay, off to court you go so either way, the taxpayers will pay.

      3) Have you done assessments on the decrease to home values to the surrounding communities? Have you done assessments on the loss of new business because commercial businesses are not going to buy or lease near a horse slaughter plant?

      4) Have you done assessments with the communities that would be located near the plants to advise them of the stench and noise they’ll be dealing with?

      5) You claim our arguments are a “house of cards” and yet, the slaughter supporters on this thread have not provided one fact on how they plan on turning non-food animals into animals that can meet EU and FDA food safety requirements. Where are the statistics and documentation to back any of the comments? Instead, you provide a play by play on the posters in an attempt to discredit them. Discrediting posters will not change the facts.

      • Barbara says:

        Vicki: Thank you! They seem to continue to just blather on and on without offering any solutions. They seem to continue to talk about “humane” processing but disregard that it is far from humane and don’t seem to care that the horses are suffering terribly at the hands of the kill buyers, haulers, and workers at the plants. This has been proven over and over, yet the pro-slaughter people turn a blind eye to it because they see nothing but “dollar signs”. These are the same types of people who skin animals alive for their fur — the same mentality (and, yes, it happens right in the U.S.!). Everything that is surplus to them should be killed. That’s their mentality.

        As far as using horse “products” in cosmetics and other things, some of us try very hard to avoid anything that has an animal product in it or has been tested on animals. There are too many alternatives available (from plants) to have to resort to supporting an industry of abuse. Of course, some things go unnoticed (so don’t anyone of you “pros” start ranting again about things that we use!) but, for the most part, many of us will steer clear. If the animal is raised for meat, I have no problem using the byproducts so that nothing is wasted (such as leather shoes). Horses are NOT raised for meat in the U.S.

      • daphne watson says:

        ahhh i see my favorite person has returned. Whatever brenda lee. whatever. Just so you know I am a 36 yr old horse owner, who has owned horses since i was 2.
        @vicki, you have heard of temple grandin correct? Her design is being used in Canada right now. and has been proven to work very well.
        IF her plans are introduced, there will BE NO need for litigations, etc. There will be a third party OUTSIDE persons( read i said persons) that will be monitering ALL the LIVE video feeds of the processing area, from the horses being unloaded to the kill box, TO the employees making sure that the horse is render dead before the process. Her system is working very well right now. She is NEITHER FOR OR AGAINST slaughter, what she is FOR is the HUMANE process and treatment of ALL the animals coming into the plant. Don’t like it go READ her articles, GO watch the vids at the summitt, GO ask those who have personnally talked to her. There are a BUNCH that are ANTI slaughter that agree with her plans./

      • daphne watson says:

        hey barabra are you or anyone you know a deibetic? because the insulin that MOST use is made from oh wait for it. HORSE SERUM.

      • Robert M says:

        Sorry Daphne. But you’re wrong again, this time about insulin. Insulin used to be extracted then purified from the cattle or pig pancreas. Today human insulin is made using recombinant DNA technology, which no longer uses bovine or porcine insulin.
        Could it be that you are referring to rattlesnake antivenom that is made from fractionating blood from healthy horses immunized with modified snake venom?
        Of course, from your previous posts, it’s clear you are not concerned with these pesky “facts” — but it’s just another example of the false information you continue to put out for others to read.

    • Suzanne says:

      Cowhorse ~ I’m quite sure that I know at least as much as you do about animal “rights” vs animal ‘welfare.” What you don’t seem to understand is that, while you propose a sensible business model, the horse slaughter “industry” doesn’t follow ANY business model. They do not operate like legitimate businesses because they are NOT legitimate businessmen. They steal horses, they purchase horses under false pretenses, they rig auctions so they get all the best young, fat horses. I have seen ALL of this for myself, having lived and owned horses for 15 years in the shadow of both Beltex and Dallas Crown. I finally took my horse and moved with my husband to his native Indiana because I couldn’t stand any more. How these people operate may not make sense to you – or anyone – but they DO act as we have described. I have SEEN it, so don’t start.

      When we say “STOP breeding” we mean for the moment, for cryin’ out loud. You talk about business models. Would any sensible “producer” continue to produce just as much, if not more, during the worst recession since the Great Depression? No, they cut back, hunker down and stay ready for when the economy picks up. You don’t produce more when you can’t even sell the inventory you have left from last year. Economics 101. If the market is not there, you will not sell product. Period. As for slaughter, if it were the answer to all the industry’s ills, WHY hasn’t it worked? We are exporting more horses to slaughter than we were before the closure of domestic plants – it doesn’t matter one whit where the plants are – and still you cry about the explosion of “unwanted” horses. Obviously, no matter what you try to claim, slaughter is NOT helping the problem. In fact, slaughter is the PROBLEM, not the solution.

      Slaughter encourages endless over-breeding is not only working to the detriment of many breeds like Quarter Horse and Thoroughbreds, but causes misery for the horse,s and makes our country guilty of knowingly exporting tainted meat for the consumers overseas.

      We are already guilty of forging documentation about drugs in horses presented for slaughter and the EU knows it. What will we do in 2013 when we have to be under a program comparable to the EU’s passport system? I would never send a horse to slaughter, and I have no intention of sitting still for a system that’s more costly and restrictive than the failed NAIS ever thought of being.

      As for the GAO report, have you actually READ it? They do recommend a complete ban on horse slaughter and transport across borders for the purpose of slaughter. Did you miss that part? Did you also miss the part about how all the information they had is “anecdotes” that “seem to indicate” blah, blah. That’s no more than hearsay and not worth the paper it’s printed on.

      And then you skip right over the FACT that our horses are tainted with a large variety of drugs that plainly state on the labels: Not for use in horses intended for human consumption. Bute is the best known because it was licensed to humans at one time. The reason it was withdrawn is the same reason it’s banned from food animals today. There are SO many more – wormers, topicals, antibiotics, some vaccinations, even fly spray! How, pray tell, to you get around this?

      I have NO problem with traditional animal-agriculture. It’s HORSE slaughter I am against. I’m a hamburger addict, and I have NO plans for giving up beef. But the beef producers are shooting themselves in the foot by being pro-horse slaughter. Just when they are banking on international trade for the future, they are showing the consumers overseas that they apparently don’t give a flip about food safety. By their actual support of the export of tainted meat, it’s bound to make one wonder how committed to food safety they really are. It’s giving our entire meat industry a black eye – and not just overseas.

      Have you ever actually owned a horse? I know you haven’t been inside a horse slaughter plant or you would know that there is no such thing as “humane processing ” for horses. Not in US plants, not in Mexican plants and not in Canadian plants. Even Temple Grandin admits that she doesn’t know of a way to humanely slaughter horses.

      Bye for now. I’ll be back.

  67. Barbara says:

    https://www.facebook.com/pages/United-Profiteers-for-Horse-Slaughter-The-Truth/285997518077706

    More truths! How can you turn a blind eye to these facts? Go onto this site and read the horror stories. Read about all the fine race horses discarded, sent to slaughter without even a chance of being adopted. Look at the pictures of the emaciated and wounded horses that died at the hands of the feed lot “caretakers”! Can you pro-slaughter people deny any of this? Do you have any explanation? Why would you want this to continue? This is a disgrace for all Americans!

  68. daphne watson says:

    @barb guess what YOU are wrong again. I HAD gestional diabties. I WAS given insulin that was MADE BY EQUINE serum. IT says it RIGHT ON MY BOX. expires 12/2011
    I used the same insulin for 7 months of my pregnancy just last yr, MY DAD who is a diabetic has the exact same stuff, as my MIL. sorry you are WRONG, SOME insulin is made by EQUINE SERUM!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

    • Barbara says:

      As usual, Daphne, you have the name wrong. I believe it was Robert who mentioned the insulin and BTW: what is “gestional diabties”? Did you perhaps mean “gestational diabetes”? In any case, Robert is correct. The use of recombinant DNA to produce insulin was put into effect back in 1982 so the use of pigs, cattle, or horses for hormone replacement therapy (and, yes, Daphne, insulin is a hormone) is not necessary! It was made from pork and beef pancreas because it was closest to human insulin. In fact, pork insulin has only one amino acid difference while beef has three; therefore, pork insulin was used more than beef. I find no references in the literature that mention insulin made from horse pancreas but if your bottle states “equine serum” then who are we to doubt the almighty medical profession? Of course, this is just another of your “open-mouth, insert-foot” statements that give our side even more ammunition since insulin can be manufactured without having to kill animals for it! As I said before, keep talking. It only strengthens our case!

  69. Robert M says:

    Dear Daphne;
    If you or any of your family members are injecting what you believe is insulin and the label for it contains the words “Horse Serum” or “Equine Serum” you are:

    1.) Using the wrong medication for diabetes and are
    2.) Lucky to be alive -or-
    3.) Lying

    So which is it?

    Based on all of your previous posts, I’m going with number 3.

    • Brenda Lee says:

      You guys, are good. You guys are funny. Daphne on the other hand… is just plain ~~~~~WRONG, ALL THE TIME YOUR JUST WRONG!!!~~~~~~. And such a big mouth, to always be wrong!!!1 hahah I’ve always said, you’re great entertainment Daphne. To quote you “Whatever”. Now that is quite an intelligent statement, if I ever heard one..

      They got your number Daphne, you might as well hang it up.. Little mis BLM, lover.. Hugs and Kisses!!! Later

      • Barbara says:

        Brenda Lee: :-) Thank you! Yep, she’s a real piece of work. Nothing to back up anything she says, contradicts herself, and actually is good for our side! That’s why we like for her to keep talking! :-)

    • daphne watson says:

      umm ok robert so I guess the pharmacey that filled that presericp and the doctor that gave me the presricp was wrong and wrong . IT box clearly stated derived from EQUINE SERUM. It was for gestestional debiates.

      • vicki says:

        Just FYI, zebras, donkeys, burros and mules are all part of the equidae/equine family so it could have come from a source other than a horse.

  70. Barbara says:

    Robert: Again, a big thank you! I find her comments to be somewhat comical now. She keeps opening her mouth and actually supporting our side with her own words. It’s amusing!

  71. Barbara says:

    “MUSKOGEE, OK — A man and a woman face charges in a shocking animal abuse case in Muskogee County. The animal abuse investigation began with a Crime Stoppers tip to Muskogee Police. It led to the arrest of 26-year-old Austin Mullins. He is accused of taking a seven-week-old Jack Russell terrier puppy named, Joplin, to Hopewell Park east of Muskogee and shooting it up to ten times with a .22. Mullins is now charged with animal cruelty. Investigators say the dog belonged to 23-year-old Krystal Lewis. Deputies say once Joplin was killed, the dog was brought to her apartment, where she skinned it. “This is the worst case of animal cruelty that I have investigated,” said Muskogee County Sheriff’s Deputy George Roberson. Roberson says Lewis intended to skin the dog to make a belt out of the hide. Lewis, who turned herself in on Sunday, is also charged with animal cruelty. The judge in the case ordered a mental competency evaluation for both Mullins and Lewis.”

    Isn’t it curious that this is considered a crime and abuse but doing the same thing to a foal or adult horse is not?! Foals are sent to slaughter (see link below) and are skinned alive for European buyers who insist that the meat is sweeter if the foal is still alive when skinned. The skin is used for various items such as the famous “Corinthian leather” in new cars! Isn’t it curious that THIS is not illegal or consider abuse? I guess when big money is involved and a group of humans are doing these acts, it’s consider “progress” and “industry”!!

    http://www.greenhorn-horse-facts.com/nursemare.html

  72. vicki says:

    Daphne, your uninformed leader posted this to you yesterday (unless it’s another Daphne) “The studies have been done – Government inspectors constantly test the meat out of ALL plants – in Canada and Mexico all of the EU horse plants go through periodic audits for drug residue in meat. THERE HAS NEVER BEEN A SINGLE SAMPLE OF HORSE MEAT IN EITHER CANADA OR MEXICO WITH UNACCEPTABLE LEVELS OF BUTE – NOT EVER – NOT EVEN ONCE – NADA!”

    Would you please tell her that her statement is a flat out lie. First, there are NO ACCEPTABLE LEVELS OF BUTE. IT IS BANNED in food animals. The studies she is using are either on European horses, not US horses or have nothing to do with equines. They are referencing animals other than horses. In 2004, the USDA ran a pilot at Cavel using the appropriate test to determine bute residues (kidney assay, not muscle tissue). They did indeed find many horses that tested positive but after the pilot, returned to the standard test that doesn’t detect bute. In April of this year, the EU FVO released a report on testing in Mexico on US horses. http://tiny.cc/5gxpg Not only did they find bute but the report also revealed that every one of the horses had falsified paperwork stating the horses were drug free. When a substance is banned, it is banned. Period. No withdrawal. Another banned substance is Clenbuterol that is widely used. They keep bantering back and forth about running tests and it leaves the meat, etc. Don’t they understand banned means banned? One dose of any banned substance and the horse can NEVER be slaughtered for human consumption. Honestly, the mindset is amazing. The EU and FDA run extensive studies before banning medications but they know better.

    It is amazing that the information is out there in spades and Wallis continues to ignore it and keeps her supporters in the dark. Why do you think she never shared that report with you? it’s because it blows her argument out of the water so instead she lies to everyone. Just like the 1,000 jobs she keeps promising when the combined total from the 3 plants was about 30 jobs held by American citizens or the revenue lost that never went to the US to begin with. Honestly, support horse slaughter but not with lies. It’s no wonder you have all your information mixed up – look at what you’re being fed.

  73. vicki says:

    Daphne, I must apologize for misstating something in my last email. The EU and the US does not test for bute because it is banned. Unfortunately, they assume if an owner has given their animal bute, they’re not sending it to slaughter. The test in Mexico found banned substances but did not test for bute. To properly test for bute, the kidneys must be assayed and the tests they use don’t do that. The other information was correct on the bute positives from pilot when the plants were open. We obtained that from a FOIA. In addition, a peer reviewed published paper in Food and Chemical Toxicology studied 68 Thoroughbreds that were headed to slaughter. They used TBs because the vet records were accessible. Of the 68, 18 went to slaughter. All had received bute. Of the 50 remaining, 16 were studied and all 16 had received bute.

    The bottom line is that if you don’t test for it, you’re not going to find it. The standard tests do not detect bute. In any event, Wallis’ claim that bute was never detected is false. All she needs to do is pull a FOIA.

    This is a good vet paper from Ireland on bute based on EU regulations – http://www.equinewelfarealliance.org/uploads/Ireland_-_bute.pdf. The background info is very informative and on the second page, see the Leakage section on the consequence for sending an animal that should not have been sent.

  74. okiestorm1 says:

    press release. Feel free to circulate and post widely.
    PRESS RELEASE: Equine Scientists Debunk Activist Horsemeat Health Risk Claims
    archive.constantcontact.com
    Four prominent equine scientists, Dr. Don Henneke, Phd, Dr. Sheryl King, Phd, PAS, Dr. William Day, Phd and Dr. Patricia Evans, EdD, have written a strongly worded letter to the Journal of Food and Chemical Toxicology in regards to a February 2010 paper, “Association of phenylbutzone usage in horses…

  75. okiestorm1 says:

    link is http://archive.constantcontact.com/fs024/1103685263837/archive/1107973493615.html PRESS RELEASE: Equine Scientists Debunk Activist Horsemeat Health Risk Claims
    archive.constantcontact.com
    Four prominent equine scientists, Dr. Don Henneke, Phd, Dr. Sheryl King, Phd, PA…S, Dr. William Day, Phd and Dr. Patricia Evans, EdD, have written a strongly worded letter to the Journal of Food and Chemical Toxicology in regards to a February 2010 paper, “Association of phenylbutzone usage in horses…See More. This is the link to the letter.

  76. Beth Schang says:

    http://campaign.r20.constantcontact.com/render?llr=omaglqdab&v=0012ndadPBmR-IdaCVokeF0-VW-O25ukHw4XeDFxrV05wZ3rCRyUuEJyUlKmvypn1KbqjG9n5QxeQlnK5fvU-oXw7EIzq53926sewh85uZkaWlSk0dt0CdPH46Z7ojV4PofVdIhsXvystinI4K1RnG6J_mSbe0l10sSAO2Y-9v1teqnqLbmCIZzqF1rNxSoN5vagg_EKs7-k3HILtvK4CzAYY8cTfPOiKuo30ODOJX2IyCO5txOmJ1_5sYhDCIoP4EBa2rVfBaPeDeZcWNMdQ8ucA%3D%3D

    EQUINE WELFARE ALLIANCE
    PRESS RELEASE

    October 4, 2011
     
    FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE
     
    Contacts:

    John Holland | 540.268.5693 | john@equinewelfarealliance.org
     
    Vicki Tobin | 630.961.9292 |  vicki@equinewelfarealliance.org 
      
    Equine instructors face off against medical experts over horse meat

    AND

    http://horsebackmagazine.com/hb/archives/11852

    EWA Strongly Rebukes Letter Criticizing Landmark Study While Ignoring Food Trade Publication Tainted Meat Warning
    October 5, 2011

    “Chicago (EWA) – In a press release today titled “Equine Scientists Debunk Horsemeat Health Risk Claims”, United Horsemen (UH), an extremist pro horse slaughter group, cited a letter from four equine instructors ostensibly written to the Journal of Food and Chemical Toxicology complaining about the accuracy of the landmark study that found that the meat derived from horses administered the carcinogen phenylbutazone (PBZ/bute) is being shipped to the European Union for human consumption.
    In an embarrassing attempt to discredit the peer reviewed paper, Association of phenylbutazone usage with horses bought for slaughter: A public health risk, the instructors cherry picked facts to make their case, but merely succeeded in demonstrating the risk of offering a professional opinion outside of one’s area of expertise.
    None of the authors of the UH letter are medical doctors and they provided no information that is contrary to the mandate by the EU and FDA banning Phenylbutazone in all food producing animals, including horses.
    The letter begins by stating the paper’s authors did not cite the levels of Phenylbutazone (PZB, bute) in the study horses. But there are no acceptable levels. One only needs to prove the administration of bute at any time in the horse’s life to make the horse ineligible for human consumption.”

  77. Beverly Levitt says:

    Reading all the junk spewed on here just concretes what is public knowledge already. This was, is and always will be about greed. When you have people running at the mouth about how anti’s should pay for the horses being overbred because of irresponsibility, that we should put up and shut up and support these unwanted horses, it leaves me in a balled up position from laughter. I know I most undoubtly spend in a weeks pay with rescue horses more than any of these folks who continue to support irresponsibility have paid most likely in their life times to support a neglected horse or any other animal. I currenlty have 8 here, most of whom pro’s would call animals that are used up, with no purpose. Those animals happily serve children who need animal interaction every day of their lives. They might not serve a pro’s purpose to line their wallets, instead they serve the purpose of helping mankind. Something the noble animal has done through out it’s history of existence in our Nation. As for the wild mustang propaganda. Get a grip. Leave the Mustangs alone and their population will control itself on it’s own, as it did before invasion. The BLM is about greed once again, serving special interest ranchers and nothing about the preservation they were created for. As I said one word has, does and always will describe the pro cause GREED.

    • daphne watson says:

      oh beverly you need a little education. The blm horses WILL NOT and have NEVER crontrolled their population. STUDS WILL BRED every mare they can at any time during the yr. YES some may not take, but they will still breed and have foals. HOW is the blm about greed and making money. THEY DO NOT make ANY MONEY except for a meager 125 dollars for adoption. THEY have to PAY LTH ranchers to take care of THEIR mistake. The blm is the BIGGEST horse breeder out there.
      AQHA has confirmed that reg. are down almot 75% and apha are down almost 50%. THe ppl that aer still breeding are the ones that just want to see a foal running out in the field because they are cute.
      And I love it how its the PRO’s fault here . You keep saying the PRO’s, guess what the PRO’s as you call us, keep the older horses, TO USE as intruction horses or lessonhorses, and BABYSITTERS.
      i see more and more rescues trying to save OLD< LAME, horses that should be put down . why not save the YOUNG HEATHY ones first.

      • Robert M says:

        I see Daphne is still with us. What a relief. I was concerned she did not survive dosing herself with that “Equine Serum” insulin…

        Oh, that’s right; there’s no such thing. Nevermind.

      • Barbara says:

        Robert: As long as Daphne is still with us, we will have comic relief! :-) She’s always good for giving us support by inserting her foot in her mouth.

        And Daphne, dear, keep it up. We love hearing from you. AQHA and APHA are down? Since when? How many years have they been “down”? Since 2007? If not, we still have all the horses that were born between then and now to consider. Algebra does not lie. And another foot-in-mouth sentence: “Why don’t we save the healthy ones”?? Really?? Which healthy ones are you talking about. I thought those going to slaughter, according to you and the rest of the killers, are old and sick?! That’s always been your stance. Changing your mind yet again. I won’t address the BLM issues because you don’t have a clue about population dynamics and predator/prey relationships.

  78. Lynette says:

    Its no surprise that United Horsemen FB page has not yet posted the research for bute that they have been crying for. It is proof that bute is in slaughter horses and that it can be deadly. Is anyone taking bets that they will continue to sing the same old song even now that they have the research that proves what we have been saying. Its also a pretty good bet that Daphane won’t be back either. She’s got nothing now!

    • Barbara says:

      Lynette: Yep, the UH hasn’t posted the research because the curtain has been pulled back and the “wizard” is a fake. These people have no argument and never present any facts. They just keep talking in circle. Daphne is a good example of that. Her latest was a riot. One statement was that people don’t want to send their horse to “inhumane” slaughter. Of course, we all know that all of them are inhumane; HOWEVER, Slaughterhouse Sue says that they’re not — she claims to have been to the one in Canada and it was great. We all know that she’s lying and that they knew she was coming — also, she never saw one horse being killed! Anyway, contradiction again from Daphne: they don’t send their horses to slaughter because of inhumane treatment; Wallis claims the treatment is NOT inhumane. Hmmmm…do any of these people get their stories right? Do they not see that we have picked all of them apart. They NEVER address the issue of foals being killed, skinned alive, etc. They NEVER address Premarin mares and milk mares. They NEVER address inhumane treatment. They don’t even address the current EU that is “on to U.S. horse meat” because they are getting sick and are now beginning to ban meat from the U.S. The market, hopefully, will dry up. Wow…what will happen then? They might have to take responsibility! :-)

      • daphne watson says:

        OMG you are all giving me such a giggle this morning. to funny. love how i keep getting mentioned.

        lets see UH DOES have the article on the page.

        and as for me well lets see here, I stated that ppl DON”T want to send their horses TO MEXICO because its INHUMANE< BUT they will send them to Canada or here int he states (if opened) because IT IS HUMANE.
        knife to the neck over and over compared to a shot to the head with a PENATRATING captive bolt or gun shot, KILLS the brain instantly. YEP i do belive they would take the humane one.
        as for the market- look at canada they have houses open and their horses can be sold for what they SHOULD be sold for, here the market is tanked because there is NO BOTTOM dollar for horses. HOrses that were selling in 02,03,04,05,06 for what they were worth or more, can't be sold in 07,08,09,10,11 for more then 500. WHY because there is NO bottom dollar here.
        and YES you are taking away owners rights. NO ONE should have any say what that owner does with its horse , UNLESS he is abuseing or neglecting it. SO if that owner wants to sell, slaughter, sell to a killbuyer, NO ONE should care at all.

        So you all go cry on each other shoulders, because OH MY GOSH ppl are killing the pretty ponies. SORRY DUDES we do not live in a disney fantasy world where they fart pretty rainbows, GROW UP !!!!!!!!!!!!

    • daphne watson says:

      sorry i don’t read articles from a BLOG and expecially from an EXTREMISTS like RT. that man just wants to fill his pockets with money so he can help give it to anyone that wants to SUE the blm for anything and everything. He is nothing but a pest that needs to jack slapped, and as for the BUTE- You would have to eat LOTS and LOTS of meat IN ONE MEAL to consume enough to EVEN get a trace of bute in your body. DO YOU NOT understand that if you give a horse 2 grams of bute in 48 hrs YOU WILL NOT be able to find a TRACE of it in the kidneys or meat?

      DO YOU NOT understand that unless a bunch of vets take the samples of each horse coming into a slaughter house there is NO WAY to tell if that horse has had bute,

      YOu ppl are NOT WORTH MY TIME> GOODBYE> GO SAVE ALL THE PRETTY PONIES THAT FART RAINBOWS. hurry up, i can even load a trailer load up for ya and send them to your house, since you don’t want to see them GET USED

      • Robert M says:

        As someone who believes she takes “Equine Serum” insulin for her “gestional diabties”, Daphne is clearly an authority on drugs, drug residues, and their studies.

        Ms Wallis could have saved considerable effort finding an author for her “report” had she only known about Daphne’s impressive expertise in this area.

      • Daphne,

        The USDA did in fact test the kidneys (and/or livers) of 24 slaughter horses between 2004 and 2005. It was the only proper test they ever did for phenylbutazone and they found over 8% were contaminated. They then went back to testing fat where the drug is never going to be found. Sue ignores this test when she sends out her diatribes about nobody ever finding bute.

      • Barbara says:

        Good one, Robert!

      • daphne watson says:

        wow 24 horses. ok thats STILL not enough to prove anything. 24 out of how many?

        in order for the test to be considered well proven you need way more then only 24.

        and just a side note- my insulin box that I received when i had to use insulin clearly said and its even on the bottle – derived from equine serum. which means it was made from horses. so if the FDA thought something was wrong with that then why can I go to my pharmcey and STILL find that same insulin being used for other ppl?

      • Barbara says:

        Daphne: Wrong again. If only 24 were tested and they STILL found traces of the drug, it proves that even in a very small test sample, results were positive. Do you know anything about statistics and sampling, “N” values, extrapolating data, normalizing sample populations, etc.? As we’ve said over and over, one positive sample is too many! It is banned — period!!

        As for your alleged insulin, go online and check the manufacturer to trace the contents instead of arguing about it — or better yet, don’t do anything because we really don’t care. We’ve already proven that insulin is now made from recombinant DNA and other sources and animals are not needed so your point is moot! What don’t you get?

      • Let me be a bit more clear on this Daphne. If you test 24 horses and find 2 positive for phenylbutazone, that is 8.333%. If that percentage was typical of the whole population of slaughtered horses, then for every 100,000 that we kill there would be 8,333 contaminated with bute.

        And that is only bute contamination. Don’t forget there are lots of other banned substances in our horses.

        With such a small sample, the sampling error is very large, so the actual number could be larger or smaller. No matter, it is still alarming!

        Now that I have explained the implications you can go back to improving the genetics of your horses.

      • Barbara says:

        Thank you, John. I think your analysis is lost somewhere in the vacuum that Daphne has in her head. If she can’t understand plain English, she certainly won’t understand statistics, population dynamics, supply-and-demand economics, etc.

  79. vicki says:

    Daphne, you won’t read RTs information (that’s a response from a medical doctor) but you’ll read propaganda from Wallis on bute from people that are not qualified to render a critique of a peer reviewed published paper? That’s funny. Your first clue should have been that not one MD authored the letter. Second clue is that you don’t make false statements about people (John Holland) in a professional letter that has nothing to do with the subject. Bashing orgs or people only shows the motive behind the letter. That mickey mouse letter couldn’t get published anywhere except in Wallis World and is certainly not going to remove a ban on a drug that is harmful to consumers. Do you think a group of medical doctors is going to lift a ban because someone falsely thinks John is associated with PETA or HSUS?

    It doesn’t matter what you say, what I say or what Wallis’ propagandists say. Bute (along with several other meds) are banned. One dose and the horse can never go to slaughter. No withdrawal. No acceptable levels. Banned. Why is it that slaughter proponents have such a difficult time following laws be they drug, transport or humane? Wallis wants to open a “regulated “plant but has already demonstrated that she can’t even follow the laws that are already in place.

    So you and Wallis can wax on about tests, such as blood tests that don’t detect bute residues, how much you have to eat, or incorrect information like you can’t find a trace of it in the kidneys after 48 hours (that’s a good one!), bashing HSUS and on and on. Just follow Wallis’ propaganda like a lemming without any research of your own.

  80. Cowhorse says:

    First – R. T. Fitch is NOT an authority on drug residue. Any written information he supplies will be written first with drama (it is easy to suck in other extremists because they’re drawn by drama like a moth to flames). Referencing any of Mr. Fitch’s work as a scientific claim or rebuttal is completely useless. His goal is to sell ice to the Eskimos through the written word, he’s found some real followers.

    The drug withdrawl time and testing has been done by actual scientists who aren’t paid lackeys for H$U$ or any other extremist viewpoint. They were four respected professionals. Just because their findings don’t support your wild claims doesn’t negate either the study or their expertise. No matter how much you’d like that to be true.

    What I find so ironic, and rather moronic too, is that the anti-use extremists scream, yell, and pound their chests trying to get an actual use for these horses stopped. When looking at the overall picture, common sense will dictate that you can’t close a market off and have a beneficial outcome. It doesn’t work that way. Cold, hard statistics have proven that closing the U.S. processing plants has been an epic failure. Yes, a FAILURE. Yet, with the same inability to grasp the big picture, extremists such as Robert M, Jan Myers, Barbara, Suzanne, Vicki, and Brenda Lee all would have people believe that the numbers of horses being abandoned and neglected either don’t exist or are so minimal as to not be significant. That would be a lie. Nothing more than a straight out, bald-faced lie. Statistics are cold and impersonal, they could care less what somebody’s agenda is, and those same statistics have proven the increase in abandonment and neglect cases. Simply because those numbers do not support their view, they’ll claim they don’t exist. They do. Closing your eyes to those numbers doesn’t make them go away.

    Then we hear the squeaky rubuttal that the American Quarter Horse Assoc (AQHA) hasn’t had a decrease in the number of foals being registered. Despite the fact, yep another fact, that the AQHA can simply run a report to show the breeding and registration trend as having a large decline, you’ll read a post that claims that isn’t true. So now what? The AQHA, APHA, and ApHC are all in cahoots because they’ve run numbers showing the breeding and registration has dropped? Significantly. Is this a conspiracy so all these foals that the breed registries aren’t seeing registered are just being hidden in the closet so they can jump out and be registered in a moments notice because they exist? Funny. Comical actually.

    Here’s yet another reality the extremists are refusing to acknowledge. The three major stock horse breed registries show a dramatic decline in horses being raised. Declined, decreased, smaller than previously. How else can we phrase it so the extremists can grasp that concept? Well, perhaps here’s what’s really happening. Facts and statistics, research and experts only count when they say what the extremists want them to. When their information doesn’t support the extreme claims, they attempt to discredit the sources or outright lie and state the information doesn’t exist. That would be yet another lie.

    There is a wealth of information available, non-biased works. There is no reason anyone would have to buy into the extremist viewpoint unless they are drawn by drama and the facts be damned! If you want non-biased information, visit the United Horseman’s page on Facebook. You’ll find information from multiple resources.

    • vicki says:

      Correct, Cowhorse. RT is not an authority but the link posted here was not authored by RT but by a medical doctor. The 4 “respected” professionals are not medical doctors and it was obvious from their letter they are not qualified to render a critique.

      We don’t scream and pound our chest, we provided information from medical doctors. They are the professional community that set the guidelines on consumer food safety laws. The fact that the 4 “professionals” started bashing orgs and people just demonstrates how professional they are. Surely you don’t think anyone is going to take that letter seriously, do you?

      There are no cold hard statistics on any impact from closing the plants. There are cold hard statistics showing the economy tanked after the plants closed and everything we own lost value. The same number of horses are being slaughtered as when the plants were open so there is NO cause and effect from the closures other than in Wallis’ propaganda. People neglected and abandoned animals when the plants were open. The largest case of neglect in the US, prior to the Quarter Horse breeder last year, was in 2005 when all three plants were operating. People are abandoning cats, dogs, cows, sheep, goats, etc. That has nothing to do with plants closing. We are not denying there is neglect and abandonment as there is a direct correlation to the rise and fall of the unemployment statistics. It is not a result of the plants closing but the worst financial crisis since the great depression. Slaughter is as available as when the plants were open and is confirmed by the number of horses slaughtered. Slaughter is not a disposal service. They only buy the number of horses needed to fill the demand, not the number of available horses.

      Do you think calling us extremists changes the facts? You can call us animal rights, tree huggers, whatever you want. We are simply equine advocates but if you think by calling us names that changes anything, please continue. Wallis can’t put out one communication without bashing HSUS. It’s really becoming quite humorous like that changes anything. Perhaps a little Prozac might help to get her focused on the issues instead of her obsession with HSUS.

      Wallis and her ilk haven’t provided one fact that disputes what we have been saying and continue to say. Her propaganda is so easily disputed by anyone that just does a bit of research.

      Do you mean unbiased information like the fact that Wallis keeps falsely saying bute has never been detected? That’s available in a government FOIA. Or falsely saying she represents the horse industry when they are overwhelmingly against horse slaughter? Why doesn’t she give you the white paper from Ireland on the EU regs? Take a look at the polls. The opposition to horse slaughter is over 75%. Exactly what we have been saying for years.

      • daphne watson says:

        the fda BANNED bute BECAUSE a few kids got AA. they NEVER TESTED any horse meat for bute NEVER.

        ALL we ask is that a nEW TEST IS DONE, NOT by the HSUS, NOT BY sue W. but by a few selected vets and SCIENETISTS,.

        and last i looked there WAS NEVER A VOTE on if americans like slaughter or NOT. NO PUBLIC VOTE. just a few asshats that said DON”T KILL The pretty ponies.
        slaughter is a CHOICE of the owner, it is THEIR RIGHT. They should be able to say ” im not putting that horse down because i don’t have any place to bury it, so slaughter shuold be an OPTION. IT IS THEIR RIGHT to do with what they want to with THEIR horses.
        and a SCIENTIST is NOT a docter they DO NOT have to be. there are nobel prize winners that are NOT medical doctors. YOU DO NOT need to be a medical doctor to do tests to see if bute is in horse meat or NOT, scientist, vets can do that.

      • FYI – here is the FOIA disclosing the positive tests for bute that you claim never happened. Note they admit to testing fat which will never show bute. Then they did the pilot and finally they went back to testing fat.
        ============================================================

        United States Department of Agriculture

        Food Safety and Inspection Service

        Washington, D.C. 20250

        RE: FOIA #07 -053
        Horse Residue Testing

        Dear Mr.

        This is in response to your December 13,2006, Freedom of Information Act (FOIA) request for all information regarding drug residue tests that were performed on horsemeat for human consumption. You also seek how many samples of horsemeat was tested for phenylbutazone, and who owned the horses that were tested. You requested this information for the time period of February 2,2002 to December 12, 2006.

        We are enclosing copies of the National Residue Program Data books (2002, 2003, 2004, and 2005). Results for 2006 have not yet been published.

        With regard to phenylbutazone, equine fat samples were analyzed for chlorinated hydrocarbons in 2002 (186 samples) and 2003 (157 samples). This method detects phenylbutazone as well as chlorinated hydrocarbons. No phenylbutazone residues were found in the 343 samples analyzed.

        In 2004, the Food Safety and Inspection Service (FSIS) conducted an exploratory project in which, among other drugs and pesticides, chlorinated hydrocarbons and phenylbutazone were analyzed in 15 randomly selected horse samples. The carcasses were held, pending the results of analyses. One horse was violative for phenylbutazone. In 2005, the exploratory project was repeated in nine horses, one of which was violative for phenylbutazone.

        In 2006,230 equine samples were scheduled for sampling for chlorinated hydrocarbons and phenylbutazone. No phenylbutazone violations were reported through October 2006. FSIS is not permitted to release information regarding the owners of the horses unless the owners are repeat violators.
        In addition, you requested a list of all drugs permitted for use on food animals. Approving veterinary drugs is the responsibility of the Food and Drug Administration (FDA). This information can also be found at http://www.access.gpo.gov/naralcfr/\vaisidx 06/1lcfr556 06.html. This Web site contains drugs for which the use in food animals was approved and for which tolerances have been established. Information concerning which drugs may not be used on food animals is under the jurisdiction of FDA. The FDA regulates the extra-label use of veterinary drugs which can be found under Title 21, The Code of Federal Regulations, Food and Drugs, part 530, which describes conditions under which food animals may be treated if FDA has not formally approved the use § 530.41 lists drugs that may not be used for extra-label use on food animals.

        FSIS Form 2630-9 (6/86)

        EQUAL OPPORTUNITY IN EMPLOYMENT AND SERVICES

        Mr. Page 2

        Should you have additional questions, please to contact the FOIA Staff at (202) 720-2109.

        Sincerely,

        Carol L. Blake Deputy Director
        Executive Correspondence
        and Issues Management Staff

        Enclosures

  81. vicki says:

    Wrong again, Daphne. The EU and the FDA banned bute because of the numerous effects on humans, including death, not a few kids. The tests were extensive. It is not only banned in food animals but the drug was withdrawn from the market for humans. Please do some research before you speak on something you know nothing about. Talk to medical doctors, not propagandists.

    Once again, you are spewing “rights” that are not relevant. The owners are selling their horses at auction. When slaughter ends, you will still have the right to sell your horse. The legislation doesn’t remove the right to sell a horse nor does it stop you from slaughtering your own horse and eating it. Your American rights and freedoms will remain as they are today.

    Sorry, but medical doctors say what and what isn’t acceptable in medications in food animals. Vets treat animals, not humans. Scientists don’t practice medicine. Once again READ the Irish white paper. Perhaps you will understand “drug disposition, metabolism and excretion” and how residues can build in someone’s system without being detected in meat. If you READ the information in the article from a medical doctor posted on RTs blog, perhaps you will learn something and not be spouting off on something you don’t understand or have the knowledge to speak to.

    The only way you could prove your point is to perform a study that would have to last for many years. One group would eat horsemeat from US horses, the other wouldn’t. Good luck trying to get volunteers when you tell them you want them to eat a meat with substances banned in food animals to study how long it may take for them to develop cancer. Do you want to volunteer? Do you have millions of dollars to fund such a study?

  82. Cowhorse says:

    Vicki, you talk about pro-industry people calling you names, yet the ironic part is that you’re the one popping off names. You think that’ll misdirect? Then you have a low opinion of industry professionals if you think we’re swayed by false accusations, name calling, and even outright lies. Once somebody has a working knowledge of the industry, it is easy to see through you all.

    You keep hitting the same old wall of “slaughter is just as available” as ever. There again, just a small amount of thought and common sense will draw the same conclusions; if plants have been closed in the U.S. then obviously access is no longer as available. That is a very simple concept, Vicki. Most of us can understand that. If you’re having a hard time understanding this model, you can take a kindergarten approach and set out some cherios and a bowl. Take away the bowl and see where you have a spot to place the cherios. Maybe seeing something right in front of yourself will help you understand.

    You’re hoping that people buy into your rabid claims that the economy is the only factor negatively impacting the current horse industry. Yet again, you’re attempting to avoid your role in the damage inflicted on both horses and the related industries. If you had gotten your way with plant closures in the U.S. and the welfare of horses had NOT declined, you may have some credibility. But you don’t. Not once have you admitted that your way is damaging. Heck no, you wouldn’t want to admit you were wrong, would you! In fact, in the height of foolishness, you not only created a damaged market, you want to continue to damage the entire industry even further!

    It is this latter part that proves without a shadow of a doubt that a) you cannot admit your failure of improving horse welfare, b) you’ve locked onto one idea come hell or high water and you refuse to learn more about the entire issue, and c) your absolute intent is to damage horse welfare and the industry even further.

    Additionally, you also claim that Americans as a rule are against slaughter. Actually, most Americans could care less. They are far removed from their food sources and no longer have an understanding of agriculture as a whole or animal agriculture specifically. There are always a few extremists, you can call yourselves bunny huggers or whatever, that will latch onto a cause. It isn’t because they understand it, really care about it, or have much or any knowledge of an industry. It is just a “cause” they can feel good about. After all, as long as it strokes your egos, who cares about the actual and real damage caused by people of your ilk. And really, isn’t that what you’re hoping for? To attract people to your cause who don’t research the issue? After all, if they did, you’d be losing followers left and right.

    • vicki says:

      Cowhorse, if access is not available, how do you explain the same number of horses being slaughtered as when the plants were open?

      Ah, the damage on horses is solely due to those that send them to slaughter. The cruelty and abuse in the slaughter pipeline is unconscionable. It was like that when the plants were here and will never change. Wallis claims to want to open “humane, regulated” plants but can’t follow the meager regulations that are in place now. Falsified paperwork, false coggins and you guys won’t even support a ban on double deckers.

      Isn’t it obvious that after all the years of slaughter, it hasn’t solved anything? You are still whining about “unwanted” horses. How many more horses do you have to kill before the population is under control? 30 years and you still haven’t addressed what is causing an over population. You keep slaughtering an average of 115,000 horses every year and you still whine there are too many horses. Doesn’t that tell you something? Opening plants isn’t going to change that. You can open a plant in every state and they are still only going to buy 115,000 and you’ll still be whining about an over population.

      Can’t you see that?

    • Lynette says:

      Cowhorse! Don’t pretend to know anything about us who are fighting to stop horse slaughter. You pro slaughter guys know nothing about us; what we beleive or our morals.For your information most people fighting to save horses from a cruel and inhumane death own horses.Thats something you might not like to hear though. Unlike those who want to painfully kill them for a few dollars, we love our horses and connect with them. That’s what makes good riders is to be one with the horse. Something else you can’t know if its alright with you to send your horse to slaughter. We don’t see them as money in our pockets. One thing that really gets me is that I fear that my horse might be stolen and sent to slaughter and that is something I would never want from him. Where are my property rights when my horse is stolen? Everyone knows that slaughterhouses don’t help find a stolen. What right do you and your blood thirsty friends have taking my rights away to save my horse from slaughter?

      Yes, I’m a treehugger if you like. I love to go out in the woods with my horse and walk around just looking at the other wild life and enjoying the sound of the wind in the trees. TOO BAD!! I’m guessing you don’t like trees either. Figures!

      And its like they say “Its the exonomy, stupid” not horse slaughter houses that have put the horse industry into a tail spin. Do you not know about the law of supply and demand? Again, I’m guessing not!

  83. Cowhorse says:

    Oh brother, Lynette, did you really type that with a straight face? Jumping from being actually in a horse business to not liking trees? Huh? If you’re incapable of understanding that horses, just like any other industry, are a business then you shouldn’t be talking of things you don’t know about. Although, I can see where you’d make a good little follower.

    Your comment (rant more accurately) showed you to be just one of the back yard owners who probably equates a horse to a pet. You don’t have to like it, but horses are classified as livestock under the law. You also don’t have to like that many people are in a business. What other industries do you expect to not make money? And really, since related horse businesses also must make money for those people to survive, why would you expect only horse industries to never provide a return? That is completely, utterly, and wholeheartedly ignorant.

    What do you do for income? Would you like it if people tried to force you to make no money at it? Doesn’t make sense, does it. So why do you think you should have the right to demand people in the horse industry have no income off it? Or, is that some kind of modern nut-job “stimulus” plan….

    So, if you’re spending all that time worrying your horse will be stolen, brand the damned thing! Or is that an anti-theft program you don’t know anything about. In fact, if your horse is dark coated, I’d suggest a freeze brand done by a professional. It stands out like a neon sign. It is why brand enforcement states have such low incidence of thefts compared to non-brand enforcement states. Read up on it if you can’t be bothered with facts.

    As for insinuating you’re a good rider – maybe you are. Maybe you aren’t. We just have your own opinion of yourself to read here. Since you obviously believe your own personal opinion is of far greater importance than those who’re actually in the industry, well, kinda makes it seem likely that you’re probably not the horsewoman you claim either.

    • Lynette says:

      OMG!!!Cowhorse, talk about a RANT!!!! BLAH! BLAH! BLAH! Same old words and insults from pro slaughter. We do know the horse business and backyard owners as you call them make up a large part of the horse industry. We keep many farms going and buy many horses from other farms. We pay rent and pay entry fees at shows and buy lots of tack which also keeps many people working. You cannot talk for everyone who owns or loves a horse. We are trying to stop people from over breeding and using slaughter as a way to get rid of their cast offs. We are trying to stop the racing industry from breeding way too many foals to try and get just one that can run, while injuring horses they run too young and sending them right from the track to slaughter. That is called being an irresponsible owner. Breeders should bred for demand. Again its the law of supply and demand. Horse slaughter is only 1 to 2% of the horse business and it makes it easy for people to be irresponsible. Why is it you cannot see that live horses offer more money then dead ones and horse slaughter only gives an incentive to be an irresponsible owner.

      Can you show me that law that states horses are livestock. I’ve never seen that one. Since the USDA classifies them as companion animals I’d like to see that law.

      And I found it especially annoying when you told Vicki she was calling you names; well you sure did a pretty good job calling me names and hurling insults. There really isn’t any point to keep talking with you. You wouldn’t acknowledge the truth anyway. But here is a truth and that is that horses do not deserve to be sent to the cruel and inhumane treatment of horse slaughter and the unknowing consumers should not be eating meat that was never meant to be for human consumption.

    • Lynette says:

      Oh just found one more truth for you Mr.Cowpie. Looks like you and the other horse killers will have to become responsible owners after all. I heard that over 70% of Canadians are against horse slaughter. You know like 76% of American’s are against horse slaughter. Looks like the followers are on the right side.

      ATAMANENKO RE-INTRODUCES BILL TO BAN HORSE MEAT FOR HUMAN CONSUMPTION
      FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE
      October 5, 2011

      OTTAWA – New Democrat Agriculture Critic, Alex Atamanenko (BC Southern Interior) has re-introduced a Private Members Bill that would effectively shut down the slaughtering of horses for human consumption in Canada. “Since I first introduced this bill in the last Parliament, tens of thousands of Canadians have petitioned the government to legislate an end to this practice,” said Atamanenko. “I think it’s high time the government listened.”

      According to the BC MP, the odds are enormous that certain drugs, prohibited for use during the life of any animals destined for the human food supply, are routinely being administered to horses,” said Atamanenko. “It is irresponsible for Canada to allow the sale of meat from horses as a food item when they have never been raised in accordance with the food safety practices required for all other animals.”

      Atamanenko points to the inexpensive, easily available and widely used anti-inflammatory drug, phenylbutazone (bute) or ‘horse’s aspirin’ as it is commonly called, as just one example of what is quite likely to be prevalent in horsemeat. Bute is a known carcinogen and its use is illegal in any animal that enters the food supply.

      According to Atamanenko, at least fifty per cent of the horses being slaughtered in Canada are imported from the US where horse slaughter has been banned. The meat is then sold to markets in Europe. There are no regulations in the US to prevent horse owners from administering banned substances because horses are not regarded or treated as food-producing animals. “On top of that the US believes it is our task to verify the data in the EID passports as we are the ones selling the meat for human consumption,” noted Atamanenko.

      Under pressure from the European Union (EU), Canada has introduced a new ‘equine passport’ system, the data from which is to be verified by the slaughter houses, to track the health history and medical treatments of horses arriving at slaughterhouses, including those from the States.

      “The EID system is fraught with loopholes and it is quite a stretch to think that information on hundreds of thousands of horses gathered from every nook and cranny across Canada and America, will be complete or accurate,” concluded Atamanenko. “The right thing for the government to do would be to adopt Bill C-322 so the issue can be debated as soon as possible.”

      -30-

      For more information:
      Office of Alex Atamanenko, 613-996-8036

    • Suzanne says:

      I know this is a little late, Cowhorse, but I had to comment anyway. I DID have my horse branded with a huge freeze mark that practically glowed in the dark, but they ALMOST got him anyway. We were actually TOLD that brands were not a real deterrent, but if your horse was branded and was with others that were not, thieves MIGHT opt for the non-branded ones. Otherwise, it didn’t really help much. You may check this out with the Texas And Southwestern Cattle Raisers’ Assn. They were the ones who told us this.

      It might surprise you to know that the FDA considers horses to be Companion Animals. That’s why they don’t require manufacturers of horse products to run the tests required for food animals. And, the ONLY reason horses are still considered “livestock” by the USDA is for TAX PURPOSES. None of that really matters because those of us who consider our horses as companion animals have a perfect right to do so because that’s what MOST horses ARE these days – companion, sport, recreational, pet, whatever. We don’t own herds. Our horses are individuals with names and personalities that we CARE about.

      Besides, what do you think “livestock” means anyway? It does NOT necessarily mean FOOD. Livestock: A useful animal that lives on a farm or ranch. Doesn’t say ONE WORD about having to be edible. Besides, a great many horses no longer live on farms and ranches. Those must not be livestock by definition, right?

      I just cannot for the life of me understand how any sane person can condone sending meat of questionable safety to ANYONE, but especially if the potential for toxicity especially applies to children as it does with bute. Remember, WE did NOT write the laws. These laws were in place long before Dr. Marini did her study. In fact, the final use of bute – in certain dairy cattle – was rescinded in 2003. There hasn’t been approved use for bute in food animals since then and even that was an “extralabel” use.

      We are sending as many horses to slaughter as the market will bear. Can’t you understand simple economics? There is no market for any more horses no matter how many may be available. Markets go up and down. ALL of them, and you can’t sell something there is no further demand for no matter how many plants there are. We only had 3 plants here anyway, and 2 of those were in Texas. That left a whole lot of the country many miles from any of them. Canada is a LOT closer to the northern tier of states than Texas and they couldn’t sell ALL of them to the 1 in Illinois.

      I wasn’t going to bring this up because it’s personal, but what the heck. I have done quite a bit of research on starvation. It’s the way most mammals have always died and it is not painful. I can’t possible remember where ALL the medical literature that I’ve read over the years can be found, but I already posted one on human research: http://www.redorbit.com/news/health/138158/starvation_is_not_painful_experts_say/index.html

      If I were a horse, I would definitely prefer the calm, painless death by starvation than the terror and pain of slaughter. I know all the hoots and howls that will go up because of the scornful nature you pros seem to have, but it matters not to me. If you’re not anorexic, as I am, you have no clue. Reminds me of Sue Wallis’ statement, “You can’t make a pet out of a 1200 lb. animal.” When I read that, I knew she knew nothing about horses and she doesn’t. She neither owns horses or breeds horses. Funny, millions of people HAVE made pets out of 1200 lb. animals. Maybe she’s afraid of horses….

  84. Cowhorse says:

    Lynette, you proved the point perfectly. You jump off the deep end, but should’ve taken a life preserver with you when you did. You’re definitely over your head.

    So, what, exactly do you think horses are if they’re not livestock? Do you think they’re “pets,” “companion animals,” “the new designer accessory?” Sure, you can put a horse in your little acreage and call it a unicorn if you want, it doesn’t change the fact that horses and specific equidae diseases are federally – yes, federally – listed right in with cattle, sheep, swine, goats, and llamas. Yep, Equine Infectious Anemia (EIA) is a federally monitored program with specific tests approved for said test. Those labs must be federally approved in order to run those tests. Were you aware only federally accredited veterinarians can run those tests? Sense a theme yet, Lynette? The theme of “federal” level?

    Since I actually know where the federal definition of animals exists – quote your source that says “USDA” classes horses as companion animals. Time to put your source out here.

    What is more, doubt states themselves class horses as livestock? Really? You shouldn’t. But then again, just one more FACT that would get in the way of anti-use people wanting to convince followers that horses are pets, companion animals to be treated like every day is another day in Disneyland. Meanwhile, back in the real world…

  85. Barbara says:

    Cowhorse: First, I have recently read that the government has admitted that the classification of “livestock” for horses is not fitting. They want to reclassify them as “companion animals” for the most part, even though some are used for work. Even if they are not reclassified, “livestock” does not mean “meat”. So get off that soapbox! We all know what the classification is — it doesn’t add any weight to your argument and we don’t care. Second, if you’re going to use idioms to support your conversation in this debate, please use them correctly. Twice today you’ve written the phrase, “they could care less”. If you even stop to think about that phrase, you’d realize that it makes no sense — just as your many arguments. If someone could, indeed, care less about something, then “that something” must be important. I can excuse typos — all of us make them. These were not typos. Third, we’ve heard ad nauseum that it’s a “horse business”. Okay, but it’s not a “meat business”. What kind of “non-meat” business decides that they can just kill overstock? What kind of sick minds are okay with this? Would you feel the same if you were in the “dog-breeding” business? None of you pro killers have answered any of our questions and none of you have provided any proof to back what you say. You just repeat the same Wallis propaganda over and over with no references to any sound reports and statistics. Your own leader has been “outed” for asking her sheep to falsify the petition signatures and if you read the transcripts of her speeches it is quite clear that she’s a lunatic. And our dear friend Daphne just makes up things as she goes along so her comments are no longer worth addressing.

  86. Cowhorse says:

    Oops, Barbara, you can’t defend your position so NOW you want to take apart phrases? Really? Think going off on that kind of misdirect will gain you readership or support? Hope you’re not holding your breath.

    Since you’ve already been caught with your proverbial pants down regarding falsification of claims regarding S Wallis, I’d think you’d want to be careful of outright lies. Then again, maybe not. If it is the only way you can draw support, you probably do need to either hide or cover up the truth. However, before you ever quote any person as saying a given thing, you have to be able to back it up.

    So now you’ve only heard that horses are going to be reclassified as companion animals? How’d you guys go from saying horses are classified as companion animals to they want to reclassify? Which is it. Ante on up, Barbara, quote your “federal” source and the law that classifies horses as companion animals.

    • Barbara says:

      Oops yourself, Cowhorse. I’ve defended my position several times so I don’t “need” to take apart phrases — I just wanted to! Read my post again. What I said was that I’d read that the government was reconsidering the classification. I didn’t say that I read it in an “official” government publication and I didn’t quote the source — could have even been in a horse magazine. I merely stated that I’d read it. I never said that they “ARE going to be reclassified” (your quote). Do you people read? Again, we don’t care! You can pounce all you want on that one tidbit of information but go look it up for yourself if it bothers you that much. Again, we don’t care! Should I say that again so that you “get it” this time? Maybe if I rephrase it: Horses are not meat animals! Do you get it now?

      Plus, I was not the one who said that they were classified as companion animals so get your own facts straight before you point fingers. Obviously, you can’t keep straight who says what. No one on “this side” has been caught with his or her pants down and we’ve posted the many links to the sites where Wallis has lied through her horse-eating teeth, along with her quotes to “falsify” the signatures on the petitions. Read them for yourself. Quite the contrary, we’re not the ones covering up the truth. You people have been exposed over and over — you have more than your pants down m’dear! You’ve got nothing, which is why you are lashing out at minute, insignificant statements.

  87. RTFitch says:

    Ouch, both cows and horses get a black eye with a handle like that.

    Yup, I am making so much money that I will have to work a few more years before retirement. I owe a legal team more than you can make in a year, Cowpie, and everything, related to equine benevolence, runs in the red. Would you like to see our books, it’s no problem and it will put your idiot rant on how folks with morals and mind do what they do to bed. You have to be kidding me…we work so that we can support our efforts, good ole, taxpaying Americans.

    Glad to see that you are around, Cowpie, I was worried that you may have come to some sort of grizzly end or that there was an emergency in your family and I wouldn’t wish that on anyone. Then it came to me that your handler might have put the brakes on you because every time you open your mouth in public her bloody cause slips back a notch or two. Another theory was that your wife finally slapped you upside your head and said that your quest was no way to set an example for your young family. Perhaps it was a combination of all of the above…but good to have your lack of wit and intelligence out on the web, again. You are our very best poster child for why NOT to follow the sickness that you do.
    Thanks again.

  88. okiestorm1 says:

    Question,The anit-slaughter people and groups you all want equing processsing stoped,it has been stoped here in the USA,now you wnat transportation of American equines for processing to mexico and canada and other countries stoped also.What do you suggest people do with all these horses.You say stop breeding,ok fine.What about all the horses that are already here and all the ones thaat are carring foals due to foal the comming year.What do you plan on doing with these leftover horses that people can not afford to care for anylonger. wild horses-you all want them to be left alone also not managed or delt with just left alone to be free,ok fine,how will they survive with out food and water,the lands are drying up and winter is comming on and they are still breeding like rabbits.There are two year olds dropping foals left and right,we all know that is not good for the horse or the foal.you all say the land is bad because of the cattle ranchers,the cattle destroy the land,you are wrong,horses destroy the laand faster then cattle and cattle feed the world,not horses thanks to most of you. You want to save and protect the horses,i understand thaat i realy do i have a horse and would do just about anything to keep her with me,but life dosn’t always work out like we want,you have made it worse for the equines in America and the people who care for them.

  89. Barbara says:

    Okiestorm1: Death is not a birth-control method. Death is not a population-control method. All the ones you say are “carrying foals” should not be carrying foals! Why are these mares being bred? “Leftover horses”? The term itself shows the mentality of pro-slaughter! People who cannot afford to care for their horses must sell them to a good home. The economy is terrible and they won’t get much but they will get something. If not, give them to a good home. Of course, the kill buyers are still there waiting — so they can still sell to them! As for the wild horses, the big cattle ranchers that want to graze that land don’t want these horses to survive. Them want all of the gone! If they are overbreeding, the population will take care of itself if the winter is harsh. Nature isn’t always kind but it is wise. Of course, if the predators hadn’t been wiped out by the same people who want to kill all the wild horses, there wouldn’t be a problem.

    • daphne watson says:

      to quote you barbara”Why are these mares being bred?
      WHy you ask- because MOST breeders are breeding to BETTER their bloodlines or horses they have. its called responoble breeding.

      They breed to get the best horse they can get TO take them to SHOWS to make money(oh wait thats a crime with you all isn’t it, to make money by showing). Im currently watch the congress feed, and will be attending the 14th, guess what the horses im watching are the better of the breed. WHY because their owners BRED them to make them that way.
      I have a 8 yr old mare that is PROVEN in her events, and she will be bred to a stud so i can IMRPOVE on the bloodlines I have. The resulting foal, will BE kept and trained and HOPEFULLY in 4 yrs will be shown at congress and aqha shows in the barrels and poles,.
      Breeders bred to IMPROVE their bloodlines and get tha champion horse.

      • As I have long suspected, you can’t even spell “responoble breeding”. Good luck on improving genetics that nature has honed for over 30 million years! History has shown that you will breed for one or two features the judges like, and end up with an animal that is deficient in far more important traits.

      • Barbara says:

        Daphne: Foot in mouth once again! You don’t even get that you’re hanging yourself! Yes, my point exactly — they are continuing to BREED and BREED and BREED instead of holding back when there is a glut of horses (according to you people). Then “boo hoo” because they can’t sell them and want to kill them instead. That’s the whole point. That is NOT responsible breeding. If all the horse registries are limiting registrations now (also, as you say), why continue to breed if you can’t register the offspring. If you don’t care about registering, then what’s the point of the registries limiting the numbers? What is it you don’t get about this very simple “supply and demand” equation. So, when you don’t get that perfect horse, you want to be able to just send it to slaughter — that’s your answer to overbreeding — and keep on breeding until you get what you want. You say that you will continue to breed your 8-year-old mare, keep the foal, and “HOPEFULLY” (your words) in 4 years it will be shown, etc. HOPEFULLY? What happens to it if it’s not perfect? My point again! Just send it to slaughter because the market is depressed and you can’t sell it? HOPEFULLY, the economy will lift a bit by then and this poor offspring won’t be killed.

      • Barbara says:

        Thank you, John! Some people should not breed, either!!

      • daphne watson says:

        oh wait- nature has HONED it, ok NATURE is the one that gave us HYPP, or herda. yep sure. the BREEDERS are the ones that have HONED those traits OUT of thehorses..and so sorry about my spelling, I tend to type faster then my fingers work.
        AND at barbara NO ONE said the reg. are LIMITING registrations, we said registrations ARE DOWN!!!!!!!!!!! get it READ PEOPLE READ. NOT ONE associations LIMIT the number of horses being registered. GEESH you ppl are stupid.

        NO there you went again YOu are twisting my words(which you all LOVE to do) i said HOPEFULLY to be shown at CONGRESS, no matter what this foal at age 4 WILL be running barrels at shows, HOPEFULLY congress,. She will STAY no matter what. and I NEVER SAID CONTINUE TO BREED my mare, this will be her FIRST foal. IF she throws a foal that is a GREAT foal and carrys her traits then she will be bred to my stud in about 4 yrs after her first foal.

        I swear you only want to read WHAT you want to and LOVE TO TWIST words. LIKE i said, in 4yrs this resulting foal WILL have a forever home and WILL run, if the foal doesn’t run barrels, then roping, cutting ,et c will be in its future.
        The foals that I get from breeding my HORSES are NOT sold to whomever, I have a mare that will be bred in march, the foal is allready SOLD to a cutting person. These 2 foals will be the only foals i will have since 2009 and will only have these two in 2013.

        GOOD breeders RESEARCH their mares, and sires to get the best of the best. yes some may have problems, BUT its a a chance we GOOD breeders take.

        ONCE again READ AQHA. APHA and others have stated that reg. numbers are DONE, which means breeders are NOT overbreeding, and again NOT ONE reg. LIMITS registrations. SO have NO CLUE where you got that.

        and again STOP TWISTING words to your likeing.

      • Barbara says:

        Daphne: Once again you are choking on your own words and resorting to name calling because you can’t back anything you say and are lost. You “type faster then your fingers work”? First, “then” — did you mean “than”? Second, if your fingers don’t work, what are you using, your toes?

        So, if the registries’ numbers are down, whether from limiting the number of registrations (which would be the responsible thing to do) or from not having the same number of registrations, that tells me that the horse numbers are down. Hmmm….why, then, has it been proven that the majority of horses going to slaughter are young Quarter Horses and Thoroughbreds? Obviously, SOMEONE is breeding them and not getting what they want so off they go to the kill buyers.

        No one is twisting your words — you are contradicting yourself over and over and it is you who is TOO STUPID to realize it. You are breeding your mare and will CONTINUE to breed your mare if she throws a good foal. You just said that very thing, once again — so, no one needs to twist your words because you do that very well. You HOPEFULLY will show the foal at Congress. No one twisted that either. That’s what you said twice now.

        No one is bashing the legitimate horse breeder who is breeding to keep champion lines. You have fabricated that argument yourself and use it over and over to prove some kind of point that we really don’t care about. Anyone in the animal breeding business hopefully breeds for quality. Unfortunately, as all of us know, that’s not always true. Puppy mills are a good example. Backyard horse breeders are another good example. Unwanted animals are “disposable” to them. Slaughter is NOT the answer to irresponsibility!

      • daphne watson says:

        I never said i would cont. to breed my mare YOU DID. I said I would breed her next yr and that was IT. YOU were the one that said I would CONT. to bred her. Good breeders STOP breeding when they get what they want. YOU must be one of the BACKYARD wanna bees.

        yes i said hopefully, and YOU ADDED that if i didn’t show then the foal would go to slaughter, ONCE again you twisted the words and added your own. YOU HAVE no clue who I am or what I do with my horses. WHICH is none of your business anyhow. I ONLY sell foals when I have a buyer, this foal in 2013 will be the first foal I will have on the ground IN YRS. OMG thats a terrible thing in your eyes isn’t it.

  90. Barbara says:

    Daphne: This is your quote: “If she throws a foal that is a GREAT foal and carrys her traits then she will be bred to my stud in about 4 yrs after her first foal.” REPEAT: “…then SHE WILL BE BRED TO MY STUD…” What part of your own words do you not understand? You said it plain as day!! Now, you’re denying it.

    This is my quote: “HOPEFULLY, the economy will lift a bit by then and this poor offspring won’t be killed.” Did I say it WOULD go to slaughter? NO! Can you read?

    You are absolutely idiotic! You don’t even know what you say in your posts. I think you need some serious bi-polar medication!!

    Why in god’s name “must I be one of the backyard wanna bees” (your words) if I am denouncing them as irresponsible breeders? You are an idiot!! Do NOT address me again. I have no time for your insane babbling. I will address those who can think and write clearly without garbled and nonsensical blathering! You are no longer amusing — just very disturbing and sad.

  91. daphne watson says:

    omg I SAID IN 4 YRS. SO when she has a foal in 2013 she will NOT ahve another till 2017 or 2018 so if thats CONT. to breed her over and over then LADY something is seriously wrong with you.

    YOU keep saying its the RESPONSIBLE breeders that are sending horses to slaughter, WELL GUESS what if they are ITS THEIR RIGHT and THEIR CHOICE TO do it. NO ONE should tell ANYONE that owns a horse what they CAN”T or CAN do unless that person is abusing or neglecting that horse. SO THERE> you MY DEAR are NOT worth the time to even TALK TO.

    • Barbara says:

      Blah, blah, blah, rights, rights, rights! Same old rhetoric from you D and no substance! You are an idiot! Breeding no matter how long you wait is still breeding. I said it is IRRESPONSIBLE, IRRESPONSIBLE, IRRESPONSIBLE breeders sending horses to slaughter, you moron! WTF? You are one of the most illiterate people who I have ever had the misfortune to come across! People like YOU shouldn’t breed.

  92. Cowhorse says:

    Barbara, you really do swing on the end of your own rope. You keep implying breeders are the root of all evil. Yet, because of breeders domestic horses are better athletes than 50 years ago. Because of breeders, quality horses are promoted. It is also because of breeders that genetic research has gone on. And you anti-use people have done what again? Oh yeah, you’ve chased equine processing plants out of the U.S. thus leaving horses to be trucked internationally. You’ve had a major role in damaging a market and when that market is damaged, it negatively impacts all related businesses. Yeah, you’re really getting something done that is worth tooting your own horn about. Mmmm hmmm. Yeah. Good job.

    You, Barbara have also charged ahead like a Toyota with no brakes screaming about breeders have to stop breeding when the reality is the wild horse herds are the largest unchecked population of equines. Yet, you don’t want the BLM to manage those horse herds. Is it you just don’t like equine professionals? Have a personal vendetta against them that prevents you from seeing the big picture? You can’t have it both ways and you were called on it by a previous post.

    And let’s get right back to this classification thing, Barbara. You now have to admit you don’t have a source you can cite regarding horses being classified as companion animals. So will you now stop saying they’re companion animals? Or, despite not having an actual legal classification, will you continue to simply say they are companion animals because YOU say so? Which is it now?

    You can’t say you read it, heard it, or saw it in a crystal ball and somehow just “know” that federally horses are going to be reclassified. Livestock is still livestock regardless of whether you trot out your back door and just pet on it.

    • vici says:

      Being classified as or calling horses livestock does not make them food animals. That is the issue, not what you call them.

    • Barbara says:

      Cowhorse: You’re as bad as Daphne! Do you even read? I repeat: “Irresponsible breeders”! IRRESPONSIBLE breeders! Should I say it again for you? I am not and never was talking about RESPONSIBLE breeders! AND, I was NEVER the person who said that horses are companion animals. You have, once again, gotten me mixed up with someone else. I told you that earlier and you still won’t pay attention. Even so and regardless of their classification, they are not MEAT ANIMALS! Your nonsense about how “we” have damaged the industry is purely ridiculous babble. You won’t take responsibility for anything, will you?! Must we mention again that the studies have proven just the opposite? Get your facts straight before you start bashing those who have backup!

    • Lynette says:

      Oh Cowpie, quit picking on Barbara, it’s me you are referring to about companion animals. Well I want to thank you for making me go out there and check it all out. Because I came across something very interesting and now I see the reason you horse haters are so angry with us TRUE horse people. By the way you never stated YOUR source for the law that calls horses livestock. You see, not only are you near losing the option to sell your castoffs to slaughter and making a few dollars on their blood but now you stand to lose your taxpayer backed welfare checks if we get our “pretty little ponies” classified as companion animals.
      Yesterday, Canada introduced a bill to ban horse slaughter. 70% of Canadian’s are against horse slaughter, like 76% of American’s are against it. Not only is Canada getting ready to ban horse slaughter but Italy also has legislation pending and Belgium has had two major grocery stores ban US horse meat. So the writing is on the wall and you guys see it and it makes you angry. And there is nothing that can stop the EU rules from going into effect, which means that American horses will not be going to slaughter and there is nothing you or Wallis can do about it. The EU rules eliminate the only market for horse meat so there is no reason to slaughter US horses. Sorry!
      And as I was surfing the internet, thanks to you Cowpie, I happen to be sent to the AQHA website, (let me just say that I never go there as I am not the least bit interested in buying a QH since they are over bred and they are a dime a dozen and are the breed most sent to slaughter) and came across the Companion Horse Update page. It seems that if we get our “pretty little ponies” classified as companion animals, you and many of your friends and neighbors stand to lose a lot of taxpayer backed welfare checks. Isn’t that a Liberal backed type of bailout program? I’m just saying. The livestock classification makes you and your friends eligible for emergency loans following a disaster. If horses lose the livestock eligibility farmers and ranchers will lose the state and federal financial support. No wonder you are so angry with us who love our horses and like to call them our “pets” and “children.” We love them for what they are, our friends and companions in life and the joy they give us. We do not put a price tag on their heads and plan for their deaths so we can squeeze the last bit of money out of their souls.
      May I suggest that you and your horse hating groups might want to approach the main anti-horse slaughter groups and see if maybe a plan can be made so each side gets something. Maybe, if you and your horse haters accept the end of horse slaughter, then maybe anti-slaughter groups would stop the push for the reclassification of horses to pets. It’s something you (that’s a reference to pro-slaughter groups, not you personally) might want to consider or it is only going to be a lose–lose situation for the pro-slaughter groups. I’m just saying! Food for thought!

      • Barbara says:

        Lynette: Thank you! Maybe some of what you said with finally sink in. Lord knows there’s plenty of room in those empty heads for a “sink hole”! Yep, I read about the classification reasons, too, and it was more about financial aid than type of animal. Classifying animals as livestock allows more federal aid during specific times, including medical care. Of course, they will now come back and claim that they “pay taxes” on their livestock — just as all of us pay taxes on business assets (but they won’t see it that way). They still have never addressed the following and are avoiding them like the plague:
        1) Premarin mares and their foals
        2) Milk mares and their foals
        3) Milk mare foals sold to slaughter and skinned alive
        3) Cruelty and abuse on the way to and at the slaughter houses
        4) The fact that most horses sent to slaughter are under 7 years old and healthy
        5) The fact that race horses are sent directly from the race track to the kill buyer
        6) The fact that there are less cases of abandonment and starvation now than before the U.S. slaughter houses were closed
        7) The fact that there are less incidents of horses being stolen now than before the U.S. slaughter houses were closed
        8) The fact that horses are not raised for meat so should not be slaughtered for meat

        These are just a few that we keeping bringing up but that they refuse to address because they have no answers.

  93. Cowhorse says:

    Ha ha ha, poor little Lynette, got your little dander up, huh? Now THAT was a babble post. You think you now sound intelligent? Yeah, you really got me there talking about how AQHA horses are such dogs. I’m hoping I can quit laughing long enough to respond. Do you really think it is skin off anyone’s nose if you don’t like Quarter Horses? Do you think it matters if your goal is to have a trail horse versus a performance horse? No, it really doesn’t. See, you have to try and degrade the world’s top performance horse breed (AQHA) to try and make yourself sound intelligent. It doesn’t, but have at your tantrum because it is very hillarious.

    Since you and Barbara especially can’t seem to figure out there is actually a law that defines the classification horses are, I’ll do it for you. Which is why you couldn’t cite any law that states horses are companion animals.

    CFR TITLE 9: ANIMALS AND ANIMAL PRODUCTS Farm animal means any domestic species of cattle, sheep, swine, goats, llamas, or horses, which are normally and have historically, been kept and raised on farms in the United States, and used or intended for use as food or fiber, or for improving animal nutrition, breeding, management, or production efficiency, or for improving the quality of food or fiber. This term also includes animals such as rabbits, mink, and chinchilla, when they are used solely for purposes of meat or fur, and animals such as horses and llamas when used solely as work and pack animals.

    So, you guys catch the part where “horses” are specifically referenced? But hey, what is a little legality anyway, doesn’t stop your rants.

    • Barbara says:

      Excuse me, Cowhorse, but the law you cited says nothing about “livestock”. They use the term “farm animals” — can you read? And, once again, no one said that there was a “law” that stated horses were companion animals. Where do you get this stuff? But, as I said repeatedly, “we don’t care” what the classification is. They are not MEAT animals! Why do you keep harping on the classification issue. I’ll say it again: WE DON’T CARE! According to your citation, they are “farm animals” because they are traditionally found on a farm. DUH!!! If you want to find a reference to support your case, at least be smart enough to find one that actually uses the word “livestock”! Regarding your idiotic remark that I can’t figure out that there is actually a law, etc., I never said that there wasn’t one. I merely stated that I read that the classification was being reconsidered. One simple sentence and you have blown it all out of proportion, as usual.

      And, BTW, Lynette never called the QH a “dog” either. I swear you idiots just keep making things up as you go along.

      There seems to be a common thread in all of your posts, Cowhorse, which is that you continue to bring up things like “sounding intelligent” (twice in your last post alone), or us trying to come across as “smart”. Any basic psych 101 class will tell you that people who obsess over those kinds of things are very insecure and want to cut down others to feel superior. I would be willing to bet that Lynette, as I, doesn’t really care whether you killers think that we’re intelligent, but you sure seem to have a problem with it. We all know why!

      • Lynette says:

        Couldn’t have said it better Barbara. Cowpie is so upset at that fact that he is going to lose his taxpayer welfare check that he has tunnel vision. We never did say there was a law reclassifying horses only that one US agency did not classify them as livestock for one reason or another. Just google it and it comes up with many articles saying the same thing. But I don’t have the time to go through all the USDA or FDA regulations just to prove my point. Just like Barbara said, I don’t care what you think. And I am not trying to prove to you my intellence, only to point out your lack of accepting some real points about horse slaughter and the suffering horses endour for a few dollars one gets for sending them to slaughter. I don’t know you nor do I care what you think about me. I’m only trying to inform you about the real issue of horse slaughter. Horse slaughter is a “for the money only” business and the horse industry needs to become more responsible for the animals who give their all to us. You can call them livestock if thats what you like but to many, many of us they are our “pets” and that will never change.

        And I was only making a point that the great AQHA has lead you all into the wrong direction with this breed, so they can get your money. They have flooded the market with these animals and now they have almost no value. The good news is that they can come back but the AQHA needs to stop registering every low quality horse that hits the ground. Everyone in the horse industry is in limbo until the economy comes back and American’s can again have a few extra dollars in their pockets so they can again enjoy these great animals. Until then we all have to quit calling each other names and work together to improve the welfare of our precious horses, working, pets and wild ones.

        Oh and I DO use my performance horse as a trail horse. He likes the break.

      • daphne watson says:

        ok lynette I guess you HAVE no clue about aqha do you. In order for aqha to register a foal BOTH parents MUST BE REGISTERED WITH AQHA first.. DUHHHHH. you CAN”T limit the registration with a HUGE BREED. they are WAY to diversified with every event. So a foal that is FUGLY and can’t be shown halter CAN be shown in pleasure or contest events. BY saying to limit the breeding shows just how stupid you are and have no clue. IFyou did have a clue you would see that AQHA shows a DELINE of registered horses by 76%. that there tells you that alot of the breeding has stopped or slowed. MOST of the horses you are seeing might be quarter horses BUT i CAN bet you that they are NOT from aqha MEMBERS that breed, they are most likey from someone who is a back yard breeder who CARES about nothing but breeding a nasty mare to the neighbors nasty stud . THey may look QH but i bet you they are NOT full QH.
        AQHA does not ALLOW anyone to register a foal unless its by TWO reg. QH parents, right there tells you they have made steps, yrs ago ANY one could reg. a foal that was out of one qh and from something else. Yes they allow apendix BUT the parents MUST BE REG> with AQHA.
        you said low quality, WHO deems that foal to be low quality, IF that was the case then those roping horses, barrel horses, etc that are NOT FROM high dollar mares andstuds, WHO is gonna be the one to PAY for that person to do an evulation on EACH qh, there is NO WAY that can be done. because one QH that shows halter is a BIG difference in quality then one that ropes, etc.
        USE YOUR STUPID HEAD YOU have there.
        LIVESTOCK is livestock- doesn’t matter if its a meat animal or not. dairy cows for the most part are NOT meat animals BUT yet they are listed as livestock, horses for the most part are NOT meat animals(see i said FOR THE MOST PART, that means ppl do eat them, wether you all like it or not), are LIVESTOCK.
        welfare checks HA HA HA HA HA you all are to dam funny. Most horse owners are NOT on government help(welfare), the goveernment will help those that HAVE had problems like flooding, etc. YOu see more of that help going to farmers who have lost HAY FIELDS, CORN FIELDS< etc.. YOU very rarely see help going to ppl who own horses.
        I guess since you all have nothing else to show you have to start trying to say that horse owners are on welfare and need help from the government, so i guess that means YOU ALL GET IT TOO. OH thats right you are horse owners as well, so that means you get that welfare check as well right.
        We grew up in a country were we had the RIGHT to do with what we wanted to any animal unless you abused or neglected it. NOW in this time 2011 you are all taking away that right or trying to take away that right.
        You seen horses being stolen at night for the black market WHY because there is NO slaughter houses open here in the states, YOu see horses being abdaonded along side the rd, WHY because ppl can't sell them for anything, Ppl who do not want horses anymore , can't even sell them to get their money back.

        Slaughter needs to come back to the states, WHY because like it or not it SET a bottom dollar for horses. IN 2005 you could sell a horse for over 1500, today that same horse would sell for 150, NOT because of the economoney but because there is NO bottome dollar for them. Shortly after the markets closed the price of horses TANKED. to bad you can't see past your disney fairy tale land.

      • Robert M says:

        Hey Daphne – How’s that “Equine Serum” insulin working out for you?

        Maybe you can share your pharmaceutical marvel with Ms Wallis; she’s always looking for new and unusual uses for horses — maybe the two of you (with the help of Cowhorse, as you will need someone with marginally good spelling and grammar skills) can start a business selling “Equine Serum Insulin” — you never know, it may be as successful as trying to sell the idea of bringing horse slaughter back to the US…

      • Barbara says:

        Daphne: The “horse serum” must be frying your brain because you simply cannot comprehend what people say. No one said that horse owners “are on welfare”. Show me that quote. What Lynette and I said was that the classification of “livestock” by the government was meant to provide help for those who have herds of animals used in their farming business and suddenly face a crisis. If horses are reclassified, those raising horses for business and calling them business “assets” will lose government help if a disaster occurs. Get it? Doubtful that many ranchers have hundreds and hundreds of horses these days but they are protected nonetheless. Also, both you and Cowhorse have missed Lynette’s point about AQHA and Quarter Horses. She merely stated that there are so many, the quality has declined. You can bitch all you want that AQHA registers horses ONLY when both parents are registered but that means nothing as far as quality and soundness. If the offspring of good parents happens to be of poor quality, according to you it can still be registered and it’s based solely on lineage — not quality. Puppy mills do the same thing — breed purebred dogs that can be registered but are of questionable quality. Some are aggressive; some have a recessive genetic defect that suddenly shows up. They can still be registered because they are purebreds. Same for horses and any other animal. I’m sure that many of you who breed do it for quality and we don’t have an issue with that; however, as I said time and time again, those breeders who are “irresponsible” are breeding not for quality, but for money. That’s the problem and that’s where the “dime-a-dozen” horses come from that end up at slaughter. They don’t fall from the sky!

        Your quote: “You seen horses being stolen at night for the black market WHY because there is NO slaughter houses open here in the states, YOu see horses being abdaonded along side the rd, WHY because ppl can’t sell them for anything, Ppl who do not want horses anymore , can’t even sell them to get their money back.”

        We have given you the statistics over and over that prove your statements above to be wrong. You just won’t admit it. Horse theft has DECLINED since the U.S. kill houses were closed. The incidence of abandonment and starvation has DECLINED since the kill houses were closed. Studies prove this. What don’t you understand about data?

        Why don’t you address some of the many cruelty issues that I brought up instead of the same old crap that you spew out. You continue to mention “rights” and we continue to point out that no one’s right is being taken away. You are free to kill and eat your horse; you are still free to sell your horse to the killers. As far as people abandoning their horse because “they can’t sell them for anything”, what sense does that make? They still get nothing so it makes no sense. You said “people who don’t want them anymore…” Really? Don’t “want them”?? This is irresponsible. They are not a piece of fruit that has gone bad and needs to be thrown out. Those who cannot afford to take care of their horses because of the economy can sell them, give them away, find a rescue to take them, sell them to the killers, etc. There are options besides starvation and abandonment. Those who have lots of horses that are starving are cruel people who would most likely treat them the same in any economy. They don’t care about them, period!

      • Lynette says:

        Well SAID Barbara!!!! No need for me to add anything. You understood what I was saying, they will never get it. They just like to name call, I guess that makes them feel “intelligent.” What Daphane say, “USE YOUR STUDID HEAD.” Too funny! Your right she does say some good stuff!

        We have given them all the FACTS and they still don’t see that live horses bring more money then dead ones, so be it. OH Well! I guess they will just stay locked in the past. Its time for us others to move on.

        You ROCK Barbara!!!!

  94. Barbara says:

    Lynette: Thanks! I am growing very tired of their same old rhetoric. It was amusing but now has become tiring because they can’t think of anything new and can’t back what they bring up over and over. Most don’t have the mental skills to have a logical debate. Instead, they jump on and twist what we say so that we have to actually copy and paste our quotes to show them again, after which there is “silence” for a short time while they try to come up with something else to say! Yep, time for us to move on. These are the same folks with the same mentality as those on the UH FB site. Their “logic” fails time after time. I loved the one who asked why dogs still get cancer if horse meat in pet food was banned years ago. Are you kidding me? That’s the so-called “logic” of these killers.

    • Lynette says:

      Barbara, as you can see most have tired of this game with these horse killers and have moved on. Daphane is a loser and she has to check with her idol Slaughter House Sue to find out what to say. Daphane is also the mouthpiece for the BLM who is running our wild mustangs into extinction so we know her type. She continues to go in circles and it just wastes our time. We have other blogs to go to as there are some will see the light. So move on, our work is done here.

      Like I said before YOU ROCK Barbara!!! See you on another blog soon. Our work continues to save our horses, wild and pets!

  95. daphne watson says:

    OK YOU ALL ARE JUST PLAN nuts. i do not NEED THE INSULIN ANYMORE BECAUSE i ONLY NEEDed it while I was pregnant with my last child.

    as for aqha horses ,IF you limit the registrations of only certain horses, you run into the problem of genetic flaws, hypp, herda, owls, IF you only reg. certain foals then you run into the problem of NOT being able to IMPROVE the bloodlines. And those ppl who just bred, DO NOT HAVE REG> QH OR APHA horse, they are BACKYARD breeders who just want to have a foal.

    as for ppl getting rid of their horses NOT EVERYONE keeps horses for life, and SOME ppl GET OUT OF horses altogether. The gentleman down the rd from me, has had horses most of his life, He lost his wife last yr, and WANTS to get out of horses, so him selling them is IRRESPONSIBLE to you? GIVE me a break. NOT everyone KEEPS horses for life. I have sold many horses in my life, because I outgrew them, I do not ride that dicipline, etc.
    NOT one of us have said we are HORSE KILLERS< just because we are PRO slaughter DOESN"T mean that we are horse killers, or unacring. I just spent all day holding the head of my stud, while the vets worked on him. SO i guess thats uncarring to you all?

    and have you NOT heard of all the horses that were being STOLEN out of the pens in FL, have you NOT looked on NETPOSSE of the hundreds of horses taht have been stolen? 85% of the biggest thefts have skyrocketed since the houses have closed, where the heck have you all been. OH thats right I forgot you all live in disney world.

    • Barbara says:

      Daphne: You’re on another of your rants again that doesn’t make any sense and has absolutely no connection to what anyone has said. Once again, you just simply cannot comprehend what the conversation is all about. I didn’t say that you are still on insulin — I said it must be frying your brain, which mean that whatever you took in the past must be still frying your brain. It was a joke, sweetie. Unfortunately, it went right over your head — just as everything else!

      As for your continued rant about people keeping their horses, I believe one of your past posts mentioned that people KEEP THEIR HORSES (as do you!!) so what the heck are you talking about now? I said that people have CHOICES

      • Barbara says:

        (Continued)
        They have CHOICES. They can sell them, keep them, give them away, give them to a rescue, or sell them to the killers.

        Your quote: “as for ppl getting rid of their horses NOT EVERYONE keeps horses for life, and SOME ppl GET OUT OF horses altogether. The gentleman down the rd from me, has had horses most of his life, He lost his wife last yr, and WANTS to get out of horses, so him selling them is IRRESPONSIBLE to you? GIVE me a break.”

        Show me MY quote that stated that selling was irresponsible! I never said that. Good goddess! Where do you come up with this stuff? What a friggen lunatic!

        As far as stolen horses. You’re wrong again. As I stated, thefts have been on the decrease since the kill houses closed. Those that are reported are just like the stories of abandoned horses. The REPORTS have increased only because it is now “newsworthy” so you hear more about it. That doesn’t mean that the incidents have increased. They are, in fact, down. Where have YOU been? If anyone is in a Disney world, it’s you! You can’t recognize when you’re being duped by Wallis and her cronies into thinking that slaughter is the answer for everything that ails the horse industry. None of you pros have EVER responded to the cruelty issue, the Premarin issue, unwanted foals that are skinned alive, the majority of QHs and TBs at the slaughter houses that are under the age of 7 and healthy, etc., etc. What are your responses to those issues? Killers? All of you who are pro slaughter are making money off the blood of horses. Period! There’s no other way around it. You want to kill excess horses to bring the market prices up. The race horses owners do the same without any chance of their race horses being given another chance at life. Some simply send them from the track to the kill house. That’s the bottom line. That’s what the Wallis campaign is all about — money — and you are blindly buying into the propaganda.

        As far a limiting registrations, this is your quote: “IF you limit the registrations of only certain horses, you run into the problem of genetic flaws, hypp, herda, owls, IF you only reg. certain foals then you run into the problem of NOT being able to IMPROVE the bloodlines. And those ppl who just bred, DO NOT HAVE REG> QH OR APHA horse, they are BACKYARD breeders who just want to have a foal.”

        This is pure gibberish. You make no sense whatsoever. It is such a ridiculous statement that it doesn’t even warrant a response.

  96. daphne watson says:

    ok and I QUOTE from barbara
    “” Really? Don’t “want them”?? This is irresponsible.

    that there is what you said, so in your own words someone who doesn’t want the horse any more is irresponsible IF they want to get rid of that horse.

    • Barbara says:

      Daphne’s quote: “Ppl who do not want horses anymore , can’t even sell them to get their money back.”

      My quote was: “Really? Don’t “want them”? This is irresponsible.”

      Yep, that’s what I said and I followed it with: “They are not a piece of fruit that goes bad and gets thrown away.” Stop taking my words out of context, Daphne, to prove some idiotic point that you’re trying to make. It IS irresponsible to think that you can just toss a living being aside because you don’t “want it” any longer. When you take on the responsibility of any animal, you commit to taking care of it. Slaughter isn’t the giant garbage disposal. There are other options — repeated over and over and over and over. Unfortunately, all of you think that everything has a price tag and that you are somehow “entitled” to make money off whatever you own in your DISNEY WORLD

  97. okiestorm1 says:

    AQHA,announced yesterday that they support the reopening of the equine processing plants here in America.Thank you AQHA and thank you Farm and Dairy for letting us all vent our side of this debate.

  98. Cowhorse says:

    Most of the major stock horse breeds have went on record that the support the restoration of equine processing plants. The reopening of plants within our own country would allow the process to be monitored at all times to ensure humane and quality control and any upgrades to the plants themselves would be done prior to opening for business.

    Such a market would help improve the welfare of horses during this difficult economic time and would help provide stability and a base market for cull horses. There isn’t anything wrong with expecting a business to operate and for people to be able to sell their horses.

    If there is a problem with the horse and some of the activists have the burning desire to “save” that horse, they have as much right to sit at those sales and buy those horses to take home. That would be consistent with a free enterprise market. It is curious that the horse industry is under attack by zealots who feel nobody should be allowed to make money or even to break even on their investment. You can absolutely love the horses, want the best for them, train and promote them to that end, but when it comes to paying the bills the horses are still a business. If you have one that can’t help support itself in some manner, it is customary to resell that horse. Again, rescues and anyone else wanting to “save” a horse is more then welcome to make the financial investment to purchase that horse(s) at any time.

  99. Robert M says:

    Cowhorse:

    Please stop trying to cloak the attempts to reestablish slaughter plants as an altruistic effort to “improve the welfare of horses” –

    While there are still some who are new to this and may be swayed by the “slaughter is better than starvation” argument, most of those who been around a while and have taken the time to understand the issue know that catch words like “humane”, “welfare”, and “unwanted horses” have absolutely *nothing* to do with the real reasons driving the push to reopen slaughterhouses.

    Of course, you already knew that didn’t you…?

  100. vicki says:

    Cowhorse, yes, the breed associations but they do not represent their members. The one and only time the AQHA polled their membership, the majority was opposed to horse slaughter so they ignored the results.

    Would you expect anything else from breed registries like the AQHA? Breed and dump.

    The only thing that will bring stability back is an improved economy. You are totally ignoring the fact that the very horses you describe are still being slaughtered. The same number of horses are being slaughtered as when the plants were open. It is not, has not and will not control the population. All you are doing is propping up the slaughter pipeline.

    Every business in this country has cut back. They aren’t producing more than they can sell. Some car companies have waiting lists. Why should breeders be any different? To continue to over produce and then expect someone else to provide a place for their excess inventory is not only fiscally irresponsible but just plain arrogant. Free enterprise is producing a product that someone wants to buy. Not overproducing and then expecting someone else to provide an outlet for your mistakes. That’s not a free enterprise market, it’s another handout from the government. You will be forcing a national passport system down the throats of all horse owners and more government regulation to administer the program. It will cost ALL taxpayers and be another burden on horse owners so a small minority can continue to be irresponsible.

    We had plants in our own country and they were as bad, if not worse, than Canada and Mexico. Been there, done that. There is no such thing as humane or regulated when it comes to horses. It has been proven over and over again. They can’t even follow the meager regulations that are in place now – falsified coggins, falsified EIDs, transport, etc. In case you haven’t noticed, the slightest change to make life more tolerable for slaughter horses, like banning double deckers, is opposed.

    • daphne watson says:

      ha ha ha the plants here were worse then MEXICO, do you EVEN know what they do down there. Here let me tell you, They run a horse in a chute, take a knife and STAB IT OVER AND OVER AND OVEr again in the spin, on the neck. the horse is then down BUT BY NO MEANS DEAD. they can feel EVERYTHING, just not move. They are killed by having their throats SLIT WHILE STILL ALIVE> at least here in the states they were rendered BRAIN DEAD. they could NOT FEEL, WERE BRAIN DEAD. that means DEAD. I can’t belive you would think that the states plants were as bad as mexico.

      AND yes it can be regulated and humane. temple grandin has a deisgn in place and so far it has worked very well. NOT sure which plant in CA it is but reports have shown it is very well regulated and has proven to be humane for the horses.

      what part of this do you NOT all understand. The PRO side doesn’t want slaughter houses to be a dumping ground, slaughter set the bottom price for the horse market. FACE it . it did. I asked on Fb and I will ask on here. Since the pro side has an idea what will happen IF the borders are shut down, what they HELL is your side gonna do with 100,000 horses that will have no where to go. YOU really think that we are gonna step up. OH WAIT thats right all those rescuse out there will take them. FUNNY that THEY ARE SO FULL NOW you really think they will take them.. SO your side BETTER MAN up and do the right thing. THINK about what your side will have caused.

      • Lynette says:

        Daphane,
        Your post is filled with wrong facts. Let me start with Temple, at the Slaughter Summit she said that horse slaughter could only be humane if it followed specific guidelines, one of which was 24/7 video monitoring. But attendees at the summit said it would be too expensive to make horse slaughter humane. CASE CLOSED on the making horse slaughter humane. And Temple has also distanced herself from the pro-slaughter Wallis since the summit. I’m guessing she can see all the lies Wallis is telling so she can put more money in her and her relatives pockets.

        Also if you previous statement that AQHA registrations was down by 75% is true then there will not be 100,000 horses having to go to slaughter. So did you lie about the 75% down? Hmmmm????

        And don’t waste your time trying to tell us what happens in a slaughter house because we were at Cavel before it closed and saw the gloo coming out of the holding tank and were there to rescue several babies off the slaughter house floor which it is illegal to ship a mare close to delivery. So don’t tell us about horse slaughter or the suffering horse endour on the slaughter house pipeline. We have seen it! And that is why we fight to stop slaughter and the cruel and inhumane treatment of horses.

      • Barbara says:

        Daphne,

        Again, wrong facts. you said:

        “they are killed by having their throats SLIT WHILE STILL ALIVE> at least here in the states they were rendered BRAIN DEAD. they could NOT FEEL, WERE BRAIN DEAD. that means DEAD. I can’t belive you would think that the states plants were as bad as mexico.”

        Think again, Daphne. I have posted many links to sites that explain in detail what happens to horses at slaughter. Their brain is farther back in their heads than those of cattle; therefore, the bolt does not always render them “brain dead” and, in fact, many times they must hit them over and over, often blinding them, causing horrible pain and suffering. In addition, the horse’s heart must still be pumping in order to “bleed them” so they are often insanguinated and butchered while still alive and aware and FEELING the pain.

        You also said:

        “AND yes it can be regulated and humane. temple grandin has a deisgn in place and so far it has worked very well. NOT sure which plant in CA it is but reports have shown it is very well regulated and has proven to be humane for the horses.”

        Wrong again. Temple did not agree with what’s happening and divorced herself from the UH and pro-slaughter people. Exactly what plan in CA are you referring to? There are no plants in the U.S. currently in operation! Read some of the reports on all those so-called “regulated and humane” plants that were closed down. Do you really believe that there will be “guards” onsite at all times to regulate things? Grow up! It doesn’t happen. Oh, I forgot — you don’t care. They’re not yours so you feel nothing — you leave your emotions at the door! Lovely! Regarding the 100,000 “extra horses” that will be around if there is no slaughter, STOP BREEDING!

  101. okiestorm1 says:

    Vicki! there is a market for horse meat, horses are not like cars,and the only ones forceing the tax payers to pay thier money to care for the unwanted horses are the AR groups and HSUS. HSUS has come up with thier way of saveing all the pretty horses but they want our lands and our money to do it! Yes this is about HSUS makeing rules and regulations then letting everyone else clean up the mess.People have a right to make a profit off thier livestock and that includes horses!It is not stated anywhere that a person has to sell thier horse for slaughter but it is thier right to do so if they choose. Yes ROBERT, i did know AQHA supports equine processing, i said they announced it,aka,they put out a short letter to state thier view!

    • Lynette says:

      In 2013 there will be no market for horse meat since our American horses will not pass the new EU rules. So you horse haters had better figure out how to make a living out of the blood of your horses besides slaughter.

    • Barbara says:

      Okie: As with the rest of you, you are confusing “rights” with “options”. Those of us who are anti do not believe that slaughter should be an option for unwanted or overbred horses, or a dumping ground for irresponsible owners. Taking away an alternative or “option” is not taking away a “right”. There is a difference. I have the right to drive my car down my street but I don’t have the option to drive on the wrong side of the road without facing some consequences. Is my “right” being taken away? No, there’s a reason that the law is in place and whatever that reason happens to be (that I won’t go into), I must abide by the law.

      All of you pros constantly complain about rights being taken away because you think you have the right to do anything you want with what you own. I have repeatedly mentioned several abuse cases in which I am sure that the owners of those animals think that they also “have the right” to do what they want with what the own. Michael Vick comes to mind, as an example. People abuse and kill their “pets” all the time because they OWN them and believe that they have the right to do what they want with them. The fact is, you can’t do what you want just because you own something. That’s why there are laws and consequences — to protect those who cannot protect themselves or speak up. There is a life here and there is a heart and nervous system, and there is awareness. There is pain and suffering for horses on the way to and at slaughter facilities. You want to slaughter your horse and eat it? Go ahead, but do it humanely and at home. All research and reports have proven that horse slaughter is NOT humane — far from it. It wasn’t humane in the U.S. and is not humane in Canada or Mexico. Dr. Temple Grandin has come out publicly and stated this fact. She suggested that the kill houses be closed until a humane method of killing horses can be found. She has suggested that the abuse that goes on at these processing plants (for all animals) needs to stop and one way is to install cameras that monitor what goes on. Obviously, it hasn’t been done so what we have is undercover footage of the horrors that continue to go on. The pros continue to mention her name as an advocate of slaughter; however, she happens to be a huge “animal welfare” advocate who works for several organizations and consults on the ethical and humane treatment of animals by providing her expertise on animal physiology and behavior. She is not necessarily an ADVOCATE of slaughter, and certainly not horse slaughter, but sees the industry for many animals, such as beef cattle, as part of the food chain that will continue to operate. She wants to ensure that they operate as humanely as possible.

      I have also posted several links that describe the method of horse slaughter. I recently posted the description of the captive bolt method and its use and lack of effectiveness on horses. You either haven’t paid attention or you don’t have any emotions toward anything that’s not yours — as with Daphne and as she pointed out several times. I urge you to read what’s been posted. Go to the links and read the reports and studies. Even if you don’t agree, you can at least become more informed and make your own decisions, but be sure you have the facts.

  102. daphne watson says:

    aqha SENT a vote out to ALL members, not just ones in a certain state.

  103. I think you are wasting your time arguing with people who lack compassion . They care only about money and are not likely to change. Sociopathy is not curable.

    • Barbara says:

      Catherine: You are so right. They keep repeating the same old crap over and over and have nothing new to say or any new facts to back them. I have posted link after link of articles that explain the current economy and how it has hurt EVERYTHING, including horse sales, and study after study that showed that closing the plants did not hurt the industry (since we’re still killing the same number!). It just doesn’t sink in. Slaughterhouse Sue has them fooled — it’s like a cult at this point and they are just her puppets. It’s all about money and it’s very hard to persuade greedy people to do the “right thing”. I hope they choke on it!!

      • Their new tactic is to attack people like me who run rescues and sanctuaries. Those heartless bastards would rather see a horse tortured to death for meat than to see him living a happy and safe life. They are sociopaths plain & simple. I hope every one of them suffers a horrible death themselves, so they will know what thousands of horses had to go through.

      • Barbara says:

        The curious thing is that those of us who are anti have absolutely no monetary incentive. In fact, we will lose money because we will continue to donate to rescues, hay banks, etc., to save these animals. On the other hand, the so-called “horse industry” (which is a misnomer) will gain millions. Hmmmm….what’s the driving force here? I believe also that the cattle and oil industries are behind much of this push because they want more and more land, and opening the plants back up will ensure a place to send those pesky wild mustangs and burros and be rid of them! Hmmmm, again. Aren’t those cattle grazing on “our public lands”?

        Isn’t it curious that if we treated one of our animals the way they are treated at slaughter, we would be arrested and jailed. Yet, when several people do it in a huge “facility” and for money, it’s called “processing” and is legal? Curious!!

  104. Barbara says:

    I am not slamming the cattle ranchers, so don’t attack me. I’m merely pointing out that SOME are getting very greedy and the horses and burros take the toll. Not all ranchers are that evil and bless you to those who are not and who are responsible livestock owners and keep the industry regulated and working.

  105. FED-UP &PO'd farmer says:

    This comment is for the Editor/Moderator ….While I an not trying to tell you what to do, I think this comment thread has gotten out of hand. When someone wishes a tortuous death on any other who has a differing opinion, I dont think the thread is of any value. I cant think of any purpose or benefit that allowing these vicious attacks can serve…

    • okiestorm1 says:

      Thank you FED-UP, and i agree, I will no longer post on this thread,I have stated my opinion’s and that all i can do. I just hope people will read every post and make up thier own mind.

  106. Suzanne says:

    Okiestorm ~ I didn’t realize how misled you really are. First, there is NOT a market for human consumption horse slaughter in the USA. There may be some small niche markets around, but not nearly enough to keep even one plant in business. Second, neither the HSUS nor any other group closed the plants we had down. The people in the states where they were did it. I know the most about Texas because I’m a Texan, but there was already a law on the books from 1949 banning horse slaughter. They just hadn’t been enforcing it, so they started. In Illinois, the people passed a law – they DO have that right you know. The HSUS had nothing whatsoever to do with any of it. Good grief! I the HSUS were that powerful, we wouldn’t be wasting our time trying to reason with people like you.

    You do NOT have the right to slaughter your horse for human consumption. Just because you own something doesn’t mean you can do anything you damn well please with it – especially something that’s alive. There are laws against animal cruelty and they’ve been around for a long time. And you certainly don’t have the right to slaughter a horse for human consumption that you can’t prove isn’t contaminated with banned substances. So – Get over it already!

    NO tax money is going to take care of “unwanted” horse either. It’s not happening and it never will. Don’t even want it to. You have definitely been listening to Sue Wallis way too much. Can’t you think for yourself or just parrot that woman? Never mind, I already know…

  107. Suzanne says:

    Daphne ~ There is a recession on in this country – The worst since the Great Depression – something you probably never even heard of – and the price of everything has gone down. People’s homes have lost so much value they can’t even sell them for enough to pay off their mortgages! The price of horses will go back up when the prices for everything else does and not before.

    Everyone ~ I’m sure you already realize this, but trying to reason with Daphne here is like reasoning with a brick. No, bricks are easier. She’s not even consistent. Personally, I’m beginning to think she’s a troll.

  108. Cowhorse says:

    Barbara – you address how sanctuaries are such stellar pillars. Well, I’m here to tell you this much and anyone who is unfamiliar with the realities of many rescues. There are some, I stress the word some, who operate with honesty and integrity where donations actually go to horses that legitimately enter the rescue pipeline. There are equally as many, if not more, that bilk kind hearted people for money. They use that money to buy hay for the few rescue horses AND their own horses. They will run up vet bills on animals that have surgical needs and that can never be usable as anything more than a pasture ornament. Somebody is making a nice chunk of change off this. Those so-called rescues and sanctuaries are no different than the panhandler on the street corner using a dog as their way into people’s wallets. Just these rescue owners are hiding behind a sorry horse. It isn’t about horses or their wellbeing, it is about lining their pockets. They will use donations to feed their own animals, to buy supplies and even land, in addition to vehicles. To attempt to mislead makes you only guilty of duplicity.

    Robert M – save your typing, you haven’t illustrated a single useful idea for the care and wellbeing of horses. You just stand on the same little rock saying slaughter is bad. When in fact using all of the byproducts and the meat is a sensible and realistic business. No need to just let horses go on and on when they’re clearly in discomfort from age, illness, or injury. To let that type of situation continue is more horrendous and heartless than anything. Talk about true abusers. Granted, you can’t solicit sympathy if you don’t have a sick poster child horse to hold up to the masses. But hey, don’t let the fact you’ve been found out slow you down.

    As for Catherine Ritlaw – you’re banging the sociopath drum, yet your comments are truly the comments of a sociopath. I’m sure any reader who was wondering about the reality of humane horse processing will be able to see what the anti-use crowd is really about. Your mask has slipped for all to see the rabid behavior behind it. I would hope that you would seek professional help for your extreme anger and violent tendancies. With those personality traits you would be the person likely to be beating a horse around the head, or a child for that matter, all because they “made” you mad. For your sake, please, seek help from a qualified mental health professional.

    As for the generality of the thread, for any readers curious about the entire issue, they’ll be able to read through and pick out those who’re using violence (Catherine R) as a threat; “…reasoning with a brick. No, bricks are easier.” (Suzanne) as a way to attempt to denigrate a person rather than an issue, and the same mantra that somehow it is more humane to let a horse struggle through age, infirmities, disease, or injury until they can struggle no more as opposed to euthanasia before they get to that end. If there was compassion to their side, you would be reading how horses with such traumatic status’ where mobility or eating is difficult at best would not be forced to live as long as possible. For actual kindness you have to recognize the point where it is the most humane thing to actually let the horse go. To not is causing untold suffering on the part of the horse.

    • vicki says:

      Cowhorse, it has been documented over and over and over again in US, Canadian and Mexican plants that horse slaughter is inhumane. There are decades of evidence. The fact remains that US horses are not raised or regulated as food animals. In OUR country, we do not slaughter non-food animals. Period. It is not our responsibility to satisfy foreign gourmands. They can eat whatever they want. We are not trying to change their cultures – only take OUR horses off their menus. It has nothing to do with “property” rights as owners are not slaughtering their horses; they are selling them at auction. That right will not be lost by banning horse slaughter. It is a ridiculous argument with no merit. And if someone wants to slaughter their own horse and eat it, the ban on horse slaughter will not stop them. Nobody is selling to meat men at the auctions to provide food. They are selling to get rid of their horse(s) rather than taking ownership of an animal they chose to buy or breed. Where is owner accountability? Why should anyone other than the owner be responsible for their horse?

      Nobody is forcing anyone to keep their horse until it dies of natural causes. Another piece of propaganda. A responsible owner will sell, donate or euthanize their horse when they no longer want the horse. To say sending a lame horse or an ill horse to stop suffering is the most ridiculous statement you could make. If a horse is suffering, you call the vet and have him/her put down – not trailer the horse to auction, have him/her forced into crowded pens in unfamiliar surrounds with dozens of unfamiliar horses, load and unload the horse at feeds lots, trucks and then the ultimate compassion, to be vivisected. It is unconscionable that you think that is more humane than calling a vet.

      As far as the rescues, you are not correct. We work with hundreds across the country and they are not in it for the money. Their vet bills far exceed the donations received. They don’t try to help he horses to rack up vet bills. They do because they think the horse has a good chance at life. If it doesn’t help, they humanely euthanize the horse. Many have been brought back to good health, have been adopted and go on to lead a normal life. Yes, there are dishonest people in the rescue industry just as there are dishonest people in every walk of life be it business or charitable work. That doesn’t make them all bad or dismiss the wonderful work they are doing.

      Horse slaughter is nothing more than a horrendous, unaccountable and irresponsible out. It is NOT humane processing or humane euthanasia. It is slaughter. You can’t even say the word. Calling it by other names does not change anything. We have proof beyond doubt from all the plants that slaughter or have slaughtered US horses that it is not humane and it does not provide a quick death. You have no proof and to keep saying it doesn’t make it so.

    • Barbara says:

      Cowhorse: I never said anything about sanctuaries so to whom are you addressing that comment? It wasn’t me but I will answer in any case. There are bad people in all walks of life and nonprofits are no different. Just look at the UH — it’s a nonprofit (for some reason) and is full of money-hungry politicians and liars, and I can certainly find others out there that are crooks. Unfortunately, some people will take from others and not give back. It’s as much a “human condition” as animal abuse, which we cannot understand but that happens all over the world every minute. So, don’t bash all rescues and sanctuaries and I won’t bash all cattle ranchers! Fortunately, in most cases, good people do good things. The rescues and sanctuaries are actually there to help and do help, and most of us will donate our last nickel to help them. And please address your comments to the correct person.

      As for your other comments, many of us have repeatedly provided evidence and links that speak to everything you’ve said. For example, we have provided links that have given results of studies that prove that the vast majority — about 98% — of horses going to slaughter are under the age of 7 and are HEALTHY. You people keep talking about the old, sick horses, but these are NOT the ones going to slaughter. No one wants an animal to suffer and we’re not suggesting that one be kept alive just for the sake of keeping it alive while letting it suffer. What we suggest is calling your vet and having it humanely euthanized. I don’t know where you came up with such a statement — no one has ever suggested that an animal be kept alive longer than it should be if it is, indeed, suffering. In addition, many pro-slaughter people continue to bring up Dr. Temple Grandin as someone who “supports horse slaughter”. If you read my last post, you will get those facts. She has never come out in support of horse slaughter and, in fact, has suggested that the slaughter houses be CLOSED because there is currently NO HUMANE way to slaughter horses at these facilities. The pro-slaughter people will take a few of her words and spin them to fit their agenda, just as you have done with ours. Dr. Grandin has suggested ways by which to improve the facilities but they were never implemented.

      You also commented that “using the byproducts and meat is a sensible business”. For one, it is illegal to sell horse meat in the U.S. for human or pet consumption. What about that statement do you pros not understand? Second, “a sensible business”? In other words, you have no compassion for the horses whatsoever (as we all knew); you are merely thinking about the $$$ in your pockets. What makes you think that you can use horses this way? Is it because you OWN THEM? They are not around to produce “byproducts and meat” for you. Horse meat is NOT a business. We do not breed horses for their meat. Get off that kick! It is beyond me that anyone could allow their horse, after years of faithful service to you, to meet a most horrendous end. It’s just one more greedy way for some to make money off of yet another animal once you are “done with it” and have no more use for it while it’s alive! It’s disgusting!

      Why don’t any of you address my 8 points from above? No one has bothered to comment about any of them throughout this entire thread because you have no evidence or facts to back up anything you say. You want to be able to dump unwanted horses…period…and make a tidy sum to boot.

      • Lynette says:

        I just love you Barbara and Vicki!!!! You both have given so many facts here lets hope that a few pro-slaughter folks will walk away from this thread at least wondering a little about the humanity of horse slaughter.Your posts above have given them all the FACTS now it is their turn tolook at them and see that bringing back horse slaughter is only going to continue the suffering of our horses and damage their welfare even more as it will only contiune irresponsible ownership.

        I do love how Cowpie just blows past everything to bring a new argument to this thread. I like how he brought up rescues as only making money to put in their own pockets. Like what was said above you have bad apples in everyhing. I remember one pro slaughter group begging for donations saying that they had a truck to raffle but there was no truck. They ran the raffle anyway collected the money and gave the winning ticket to a friend. HMMMmmm???? Talk about dishonest groups. They swep it under the rug and hoped it hadn’t been noticed, but it was!

        Thanks again Barbara and Vicki the FACTS and truth will always win against the darkside.

      • daphne watson says:

        barbara YOU are VERY wrong about Temple. She SAID qupte” I am not for or against slaughter. What im for is the HUMANE side of slaughter” and then she gave her design that has been implamented in Canada and is working just fine right now. The quote i placed was from a person that was at the summit, and TALKED TO and stood right next to temple. She is for the humane side of slaughter and SAID that horse slaughter CAN BE humane IF changes are made and her design is used. The kill box she designed is padded, all around, horses will NOT be rushed, there is a third party that is monitering all that goes on and if horses are rushed things happen.
        she also said that She also went on to state that horses DO not fear the smell of blood what happens is the smell of the endorphins and adreline from the other horses is what makes them react to fight or flight.
        IF you are gonna talk about someone at least get your FACTS staight. Don’t belive me then GO TO THE fb page of the summit and READ her comments and quotes.

      • Lynette says:

        Again Daphane you LIE!!!!!! You have only hearsay from a friend of a friend of a friend down the road. I couldn’t find it on the Summit FB of course so I got this from a place where one can find the truth. Straight from the Horses Heart and the article can still be found their in the old entries. Read this a see the real truth of what Temple said at the Slaughter Summit. Oh and Daphane, I want to see which Canadian horse slaughter plant is using Grandin’s design because according to this article she says its only in the planning. You lie again! Temple Grandin, Ph.D. delivered another disappointment to organizers of the misnamed “Summit of the Horse” in Las Vegas yesterday. Dr. Grandin was touted as a “featured speaker” who was said to be designing a horse slaughter facility in Wyoming that would be owned and operated by Wy state Rep. Sue Wallis.

        Prior to the “summit”, Dr. Grandin told Animal Law Coalition “I have told Sue Wallis that I want no involvement in her business dealings. …[W]e have done no design work.” Dr. Grandin was also quoted by Horseback Magazine as saying Wallis had “misrepresent[ed]“ her involvement.

        At the “summit” Dr. Grandin told attendees that many people had contacted her and urged her not to attend.

        Dr. Grandin was a sobering reminder that this should be about what is best for the horses.

        She described herself as “neutral” on the issue of whether to ban horse slaughter for human consumption. And, Dr. Grandin’s reluctance to endorse a ban on horse slaughter for human consumption stems from two concerns: 1. She said several times that a “horse’s worst nightmare” was to end up at a Mexican slaughterhouse, particularly a municipal abbatoir, where they are repeatedly jabbed with puntilla knives and slaughtered while conscious. 2. Dr. Grandin was skeptical that legislation to close the border and stop export of horses for slaughter for human consumption would be enforceable. She noted that it would be very easy to smuggle horses in closed vehicles or state other reasons for their export, particularly to Mexico.

        But Dr. Grandin also told “summit” attendees that only about 20% of animal slaughter facilities operate within acceptable humane guidelines and the rest “slip into bad practices” with a full 10% intentionally treating animals cruelly.

        Dr. Grandin said that in auditing slaughter facilities, 95% of the animals, whether they are horses, pigs, cows, etc., must be stunned effectively on the first blow or shot or the facility should be considered to have failed. She also strongly advocated video monitoring, non-slip flooring and high solid sides to prevent the animals from seeing anything. She agreed there are behavioral signs that can indicate when an animal is afraid and steps should be taken to alleviate the fear.

        Dr. Grandin made the point that “you manage what you measure” and told attendees slaughter facilities should be audited using criteria such as whether animals are stunned on the first attempt, whether they vocalize which is a sign of fear, whether they slip or fall, how they are handled by employees, etc.

        It was not what “summit” attendees wanted to hear. One man, claiming he was speaking on behalf of most people present, said Dr. Grandin’s standards to prevent cruelty would be “costly”.

        But there was no compromise from Dr. Grandin. She pointed out humane euthanasia as an option. She also said people had sent her a number of ways to reduce numbers of excess horses or help horses in need. She then read them to the attendees: birth control including low cost gelding though only one facility currently offers that service, raising awareness about overbreeding, find jobs for older horses, establish a “horsefinder” that like petfinder.com would help owners network to find homes for horses they cannot care for any longer, establish hay banks and allow hay to be harvested on land that the government pays farmers to leave unplanted, allow in place rescue, create horse parks, or impose surcharges on stall fees at tracks and horsebreeding to cover the cost of humane euthanasia.

        In effect, the solutions relayed by Dr. Grandin are (1) stop the overbreeding, (2) find ways to care for horses in need.

        And the best way to do that? Ban the slaughter of American horses for human consumption. The availability of slaughter creates a salvage or secondary market that encourages the overbreeding. As Dr. Grandin warned, however, any legislation to ban slaughter must be enforceable.

      • Barbara says:

        Daphne: Obviously, you are wrong again. The people who are feeding you information from the UH are giving you nothing but crap and, unfortunately, you believe them because you can’t think for yourself. First, I never said that Grandin was “against” slaughter. I said that she was an animal welfare advocate” and consulted on how to perform any animal slaughter humanely and that she was not “necessarily” an advocate of horse slaughter. What is your argument? Read my posts quoted below! Where in them do I say that she is “against” horse slaughter?

        Here are my quotes:

        First one: “All research and reports have proven that horse slaughter is NOT humane — far from it. It wasn’t humane in the U.S. and is not humane in Canada or Mexico. Dr. Temple Grandin has come out publicly and stated this fact. She suggested that the kill houses be closed until a humane method of killing horses can be found. She has suggested that the abuse that goes on at these processing plants (for all animals) needs to stop and one way is to install cameras that monitor what goes on. Obviously, it hasn’t been done so what we have is undercover footage of the horrors that continue to go on. The pros continue to mention her name as an advocate of slaughter; however, she happens to be a huge “animal welfare” advocate who works for several organizations and consults on the ethical and humane treatment of animals by providing her expertise on animal physiology and behavior. She is not necessarily an ADVOCATE of slaughter, and certainly not horse slaughter, but sees the industry for many animals, such as beef cattle, as part of the food chain that will continue to operate. She wants to ensure that they operate as humanely as possible.”

        Second one: “She has never come out in support of horse slaughter and, in fact, has suggested that the slaughter houses be CLOSED because there is currently NO HUMANE way to slaughter horses at these facilities. The pro-slaughter people will take a few of her words and spin them to fit their agenda, just as you have done with ours. Dr. Grandin has suggested ways by which to improve the facilities but they were never implemented.”

        Dr. Grandin has come out with alternatives to slaughter, such as low-cost gelding clinics. Read Lynette’s information about Grandin as well. She has captured her speech and provided the information that Grandin gave to the audience about alternatives.

        And BTW: the kill houses in Canada are NOT working “just fine” as you said. In fact, there is a petition in Canada to close the houses now because of how horrible they are. They want no part of it any longer!

        So, Daphne, get YOUR facts straight before mouthing off. You ought to know better by now that I back everything I say — you don’t. In fact, you go to the UH and ask them how to respond to us and they control you like a puppet and tell you exactly what to say! It’s pathetic!

        For any of you who have any doubt about how cruel the industry is and how the horses continue to suffer, check out these videos of a person who was in the industry and provides many, many stories of what they did to horses.

        http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GfzX4Fx5xuE&feature=related
        http://www.youtube.com/watch?NR=1&v=m8ZNiRV5-Mw

        This is REAL! You cannot deny that this happens all the time. And, again, address the 8 points that I made above that no one wants to touch!!

      • Barbara says:

        Oh, and Daphne, it really doesn’t matter whether the horse panics because it smells “blood” or some other chemicals being put off by the other horses. What is important is that they react very strongly, panic, and want to run. They are terrified!

      • Barbara says:

        And, by the way, the videos of the former kill buyer were made under oath and with the use of a lie detector so there is no doubt about what this guy is saying.

        Just to waylay any pro-slaughter comments about “this is because of the long travel times to other countries, etc.”, these videos were made BEFORE the U.S. slaughter houses closed and prompted the California ban on slaughter in 1998! Yes, folks, this happened in the U.S. right under our noses. Slaughter has NEVER been humane! Still doubtful? Here’s another:

        http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wgapVNp0WG0

        This was a hauler taking horses to the slaughter house in Texas before it was closed. Any doubts now? And while you’re watch this one, click on the several other videos next to the link to find even more. What excuses will you use now?

    • Suzanne says:

      Cowhorse ~ I say it again – bricks are easier to talk to than people who are determined to be unswayed in the propaganda thye get – and I mean copy and paste – from Sue Wallis and the “United Horsemen.”

      Anyone can disagree with me at any time, but when the same lies – most of them so ridiculous that they would be funny if this wasn’t such a serious issue. And yes, having SEEN horse slaughter, I say that starvation is better. Actually, starvation is the way most mammals have died since mammals arose millions of years ago. It’s the ultimate “natural cause.” The body has adapted itself, and complete starvation is NOT painful. If you don’t believe me, Google it and see. Slaughter, on the other hand is this: http://youtu.be/m8ZNiRV5-Mw and this: http://youtu.be/m8ZNiRV5-Mw

      These videos don’t even mention the actual slaughter process, which is actually the worst part. And all of you who think you want plants in the States, note that this WAS in the States. Listen to the man.

      And FedUp Farmer ~ I’m fed up too. I’m fed up with the Farm Bureau, the entire farm lobbying as well as the Cattle Industry lobbying. Every year, these same deep pockets industries block legislation that would ban horse slaughter for human consumption, because they have some ridiculous idea that it will hurt Ag somehow. I can’t imagine HOW, but it does NOT affect the domestic animal/Ag at all. We are NOT animal rights people. We are HORSE ADVOCATES, period. This is about horse slaughter for human consumption and absolutely nothing else. Yet, they continue to use their millions to keep torturing our horses and our exporting tainted meat overseas. They ought to be ASHAMED! Besides that, THEY are the ones hurting our Ag. What a black eye they are giving our food safety considerations. If they are totally willing to export tainted horses, why would one believe they would be bothered by tainted food animals and produce. If they really do want to world to shun our Ag products, well let them just continue to make a mockery out of our food safety laws. I’d really hate to see that happen, but they are so blinded by whatever they are thinking that you just cannot get through to them.

      Well, it will be gone soon enough anyway because our horses cannot pass the rules the EU is going to implement in 2013. That is, if they don’t ban American horses before that. They are about at that point right now. I’d hate for the EU to do what we should have done – there goes our vaunted “moral high ground” – but at least is will be halted.

      Again, Daphne ~ Temple Grandin is NOT building horse slaughter plants anywhere for anyone. Ask them in Canada. This is fantasy. So is your claim to have been medicated with something made from horse serum – at least unless your older than I am, something I strongly doubt. The rendering plants stopped using horse blood some time ago because it was too contaminated and very difficult to process.

      Honestly, Daphne, you sound like you’re on drugs or something.

      The determined horse bleeders who can’t be bothered by facts probably don’t look at any of these links. Why should they. They want horse slaughter for human consumption back and they don’t give a damn about the horses or the people who are eating them.

      Yep, bricks are much easier to reason with.

  109. Barbara says:

    https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=2225323026269&set=o.153312518080298&type=1&theater

    The faces of horse slaughter. Do these look like old, weak, starving horses? They were when they were rescued from the “holding pens”!

  110. vicki says:

    Let’s not forget the guy the stood up at the “Summit” and said he spoke for the audience. He thanked Temple Grandin but told her that her recommendations would be “costly”. And there you have it. Nothing is ever going to change unless you legislate it and force them to change. For horses, the only way to fix it is to end it. End it permanently. No loopholes and no getting around the law.

    Temple has stated over and over again that when she visits, everything is fine and then she turns away and everything goes to he**. She also had an interesting slide that gave extremely poor marks to the slaughterhouse workers (referring to slaughter of our food animals). I don’t recall the exact percentage but the percent of workers doing it right all the time was under 10% – something like 6 or 7.

    For horses, they are probably not even at 1% and that goes for the former US plants, Canada and Mexico.

  111. daphne watson says:

    oh hey barbera are you gonna tell us that horses can think like us too?
    or do you really beleive that horses can think”oh crap im gonna die next, i better run away”. the flight response is activated NOT because they are afraid, but because of the other horses moving around. They can not either fight (head throwing in the box) or flight, try to get away.

    BUT in your little disney world you think that horses can athink like we do.

    • Lynette says:

      So Daphne, can’t you get a hold of Slaughterhouse Sue to ask her what to say about Temple Grandin? Can’t think for yourself yet huh? I’m waiting for you to tell me which Canadian horse slaughterhouse was designed by Temple. I’m waiting!!!!!~

    • Barbara says:

      Daphne: That’s all ya got? Another idiotic question? Well…yes, m’dear, horses DO think. Like you? No…they actually THINK! They have a brain and complex nervous system. Yes, they think. Do they “reason”. We don’t know, but they do think. Should I say it again so that you can process that thought?

      So, they move because “other horses are moving around”. What kind of ridiculous thing is that to say? Who starts it? One of them has to start, right? Why? Temple Grandin herself talks about the reaction of horses to the slaughter house and their terror. You people are the ones who bring her up all the time; now you’re back peddling again because you’ve gotten her quotes all wrong and you can never admit when you’re wrong. She does not support Wallis and her cronies and now you have nothing to back you. Besides, what I said was: “…it really doesn’t matter whether the horse panics because it smells “blood” or some other chemicals being put off by the other horses. What is important is that they react very strongly, panic, and want to run. They are terrified!” You’re the one who said that they don’t panic because they smell blood but because they smell other chemicals. I said it didn’t matter. So, where do you come up with the “thinking” question that has nothing at all to do with what I said?

      You said: “They can not either fight (head throwing in the box) or flight, try to get away.” What the heck does THAT mean. You make no sense whatsoever, Daphne. Give it up. People are laughing at you.

      As Lynette said, ask Wallis about Dr. Grandin and which Canada kill house are you talking about? So run back to the UH and ask them what words to use now! Anyone care to comment on all the links that I’ve posted or the 8 issues that I brought up? Anyone? Hmmmm…didn’t think so.

  112. daphne watson says:

    ok FIRST OFF i DO NOT listen to what others say, I DO RESEARCH FOR MYSELF. I have worked at a slaughter house, I have seen the PENATRATING captive bolt WORK. the bolt is moving at a speed of 200psi and when it ENTERS the brain it renders the horse BRAIN dead. THe horse is dead when it is done correctly.
    and barb if you have no clue about fight ot flight then maybe you need to go back to school, because if i have to explain what flight or fight means then you have NO BUSINESS trying to talk about horses.
    Horse DO NOT and CAN NOT think like US. THEY can’t think to theirselves and say”oh shit im gonna die next” I NEVER said horses can’t think you dolt, I SAID they CAN”T THINK LIKE US. READ WOMEN READ.

    I was quoting what temple TOLD a person in front of her, NOT inf ront of ppl. BUT if you must know ask ANDI HARMON, she was there, SHE TALKED TO TEMPLE personnally. temple told her what i quoted. I do not know what house is using it, but i do know it is being used.
    TEmple said horse slaughter CAN BE HUMANE IF done correctly. SHe is all for the HUMANE SIDE OF slaughter.

    and once again you ASSUME i get my info UH WHEN I DO NOT> I have worked ata slaughter house, I have seen hundreds of horses go thru, NOT one paniced, not one had a botched kill shot. BUT this was down slowly and not in a rush. I have seen the kill box up close and personnal, I have handled both captive bolts and PENTRATATIONG captive bolts, i have handled the electric prod gun. I have watched horses die. and the cool thing was NOT ONE was scared or tried to get away, WHY because it was done CORRECTLY and SLOWLY, not fast. SO trust me ladies I know all about slaughter because I have FIRST HAND Experience with you. DO YOU?
    If not then you really can’t tell anyone anything about how slaughter works, you get your info from OLD videos that are so messed up, and show ONLY the botched kills. you MIGHT see out of say 500 horses 3 that are botched that there is not bad . GET REAL GROW UP and why don’t you all stop drinking the cool aid that you friends are feeding you.

    • Barbara says:

      Daphne: Once again, you have twisted words because you cannot think and comprehend what people are saying. Talk about being on drugs!! You said: “the bolt is moving at a speed of 200psi and when it ENTERS the brain…”. First, “psi” is not a measure of speed, it’s a measure of pressure (“pounds per square inch”) so that argument flies off the shelf — you don’t have a clue about it! Second, you said: “They can not either fight (head throwing in the box) or flight, try to get away.” I asked you what the heck that meant because the SENTENCE is unintelligible, as are most of your illiterate rantings. The “sentence”, NOT THE CONCEPT, makes no sense. What were you trying to say? I am fully aware of what the “flight or fight” response entails and regardless of why they feel the need, they DO panic — and that’s according to Temple Grandin as well. If for no other reason, horses will panic because they are animals subject to claustrophobia and don’t like being in a confined space like a “chute”, unless very well trained for trailer loading, etc., and even then, I seriously doubt that they would go quietly.

      Third, as for Grandin, you’ve gotten second- or third-hand information from someone who was standing with her or some such thing. You have not read her speech or watched her videos. She said that there could be humane slaughter of horses but it is NOT BEING DONE NOW and until it is, the houses should be closed. Of course, this is not what you said originally. What you said was that it is CURRENTLY BEING DONE, which proves you wrong once again. And, once again, you’re changing your tune because you can’t even remember what you’ve said from one post to another. Just look at Lynette’s last post asking you about the plant in Canada that you claimed is using a new system.

      Fourth, as for thinking for yourself, that’s an oxymoron! You don’t have the capability and it’s obvious by your statements. I have seen first hand your pleas to the UH and what they tell you to say in response to a comment by us. So don’t even go there! You’re just another of their puppets and they control your mouth.

      Fifth, as for horses or any animal being able to think, what you asked me was whether they can think like us and I said, yes, they can but possibly not “reason”. They don’t “think like you” because you don’t think and you certainly don’t reason (do you even know what that means?). They may not be able to reason, such as perform calculations or make a reasoned decision based on data (and we really don’t know this) but they DO THINK in the strictest definition of the term. I answered your question and you still didn’t comprehend what I said. They may not be able to say, “Oh, I’m going to die” (and thank GOD for that!!) but they “sense” something and panic nonetheless, whether it’s the blood of others, the smell of death, or other chemicals and negative energy — it doesn’t matter.

      Finally, you are absolutely typical of the no-brained pro-slaughter people who refuse to look at facts. We present reports and videos and you refuse to study them for fear that they will prove you wrong (and they will). What we have presented are videos of a person who was in the business and you still don’t believe him. He was hooked up to a lie detector!! I posted even more videos of a hauler out of Texas whose horses were beat up, bleeding, etc. Fortunately, he was arrested for cruelty. How many do we need to post for you people to wake up? Did you not see the news reports of the group of horses from Presidio, TX, that needed to be rescued just recently because of their horrible conditions while waiting to be hauled to slaughter? What is it about that that you don’t understand? Why is it okay with you people that these horses are being treated so badly? Why is it okay with you that they have no food or water for 3 days while traveling, or that they have their eyes gouged out or shot with beebees to prevent them from kicking? Oh, that’s right…you don’t care about any animals that’s not yours! I forgot to whom I was addressing this!!

      Every pro-slaughter person looks at the videos and claims the same old crap: that they are made up. Wow! Those horses are REALLY good actors and that blood looks so realistic! I wonder where they got it?! Idiots!

      The fact that you worked at a slaughter house makes no difference whatsoever. I have posted a link from a reputable report that describes in detail why the captive bolt does not work on horses. All studies have reported the same information about it. A horse’s brain is farther back that a cow’s. A cow’s head does on need to be held for the bolt to hit its target; however, the horse’s head needs to be held absolutely still and the bolt placed precisely. The bolt was designed to work on cattle; therefore, the horse might be rendered unconscious by the blow to the head but it is not necessarily dead — and wakes up within seconds — and is aware of what happens to him next. Many are fully aware of being vivisected and die a painful death. In addition, I don’t care about your percentages of “botched” kills. I want NO botched kills because I want no horses slaughtered, period. We do not need the meat and cannot use it in the U.S. We are sending tainted meat to other countries and they are “on to us” now.

      Slaughter is not a birth control method for irresponsible breeders and horse owners who want to dump their horses when they are tired of them. Slaughter is not going to bring anything to the horse industry except the green light for irresponsible breeders and owners to continue with their irresponsible behavior. It’s all about greed and money.

      Once again, Daphne, you can’t back anything you say. Once again, I’m asking you and others to address my 8 points made several times, none of which have ever been a topic of discussion because you simply cannot defend any of it.

  113. Barbara says:

    In case any pro-slaughter people still have any doubt, this was just posted:

    http://news.change.org/stories/inspectors-fear-workers-who-slaughter-horses

    Here’s a excerpt, but please read all of the article:

    “Canadian officials fear inspectors will be injured or killed as workers manhandle and fire guns at horses. There may also be concern that inspectors will suffer post traumatic stress from observing such brutal treatment of animals. So they abandoned regulatory oversight of the slaughter process.

    Horses in Canada are supposed to be stunned prior to slaughter with a rifle or captive bolt gun. (You may remember the captive bolt gun used by the serial killer in the film, No Country for Old Men.) Investigations have shown the horses are beaten, shocked and shoved during this inherently cruel and inhumane process. Commercial horse slaughter for human consumption is not legal in the U.S., but American horses are still sent to Canada, as well as Mexico, for slaughter.”

    • Lynette says:

      Oh Barbara,

      This article is so good! So perfect for Daffy since she admitted to being in a slaughterhouse and handleing a bolt gun. Not too sure if she could actually kill a horse but she was atleast, according to her, was in a slaughter house. So now we know what her problem is. I wonder if, she decided to leave after she read this artilce or what. I would have run away too if I were her. I already had a whole bunch of questions to ask her. LIE, LIE and Lie some more, is all I know.

      Thanks for posting this great article on what really happens in a horse slaughterhouse. The pain and suffering of our horses is unforgiveable! This article along with the confussions of the Kill Buyer on YOUTUBE is disgraceful and shows how despicable this business is!

      Kind of sorry to see Daffy go. She was very entertaining.

  114. Barbara says:

    Oh, Daphne! You’ve actually asked the folks on the UH site whether they have “told you what to say” and whined to them about how mean we are! Perfect! You went so far as to say the WE are calling YOU names. Excuse me but that started with you, m’dear, not us. Poor baby!

    • daphne W says:

      wow barbara are you FOLLOWING ME now? i asked because YOU said I ask there and they tell me how to respond. I honsetly don’t EVERY remember asking UH anything on how to respond to you wack jobs.

      and i was asked- do you belong on horse city? because there is someone over there that thinks starvation doesn’t hurt JUST LIKE YOU SAID .
      i will NO LONGER comment to you or any of your groupies because you are not worth my time and i have more important things to deal with.

      • Barbara says:

        No, Daphne, I wouldn’t waste my time following you. I just see your name popping up all over the place and today it was comical — you actually asked for their help, you poor abused thing!

        BTW: I wasn’t the one who said that “starvation doesn’t hurt”. I NEVER said that so get the facts right, once again. When you’re ready to have an intelligent conversation about this without emotional crap and lying, hearsay, back peddling, etc., I’d be more than happy to chat. Ta, ta!

      • Suzanne says:

        Daphne ~ Complete starvation is not painful. Here’s the link: http://www.redorbit.com/news/health/138158/starvation_is_not_painful_experts_say/index.html

        Read it for yourself. This by the way, is about HUMANS.

        As for horses thinking, according to studies published in TheHorse.com, horses are capable of understanding concepts and applying them to different situations a year later. Now, that’s some reasoning power! We used to think that only humans were capable of conceptual thinking. Well, horses are too. Another study published in The Horse confirmed that horses can also count. I don’t mean “one and more than one” but actually knowing the difference between 3 and five, or 2 and 4. I don’t remember how high they went in this test, but it was at least to 5, maybe 7. Horses are SMART, and anyone who have ever shared a close bond with a horse knows this.

        Also, they TRY not to kill the horses – just stun them because the heart needs to be beating to pump out the blood. And, for the reasons Barbara has already posted, it’s almost impossible to get a clean shot because of the frantic head tossing, the different position of a horse’s brain that requires a different angle than a cow. And these people are not very well trained, especially with horses.

        Don’t forget, I have been inside a slaughter plant too. No, I didn’t work there and you have shown me no proof that you did either. Nevertheless, I know what I saw.

        Bye, Daphne. You have been a real, um, revelation.

  115. vicki says:

    What a surprise! A slaughter supporter that can’t answer a few questions. Of course, Daphne is running. They break out in hives when they’re around facts…

    • Barbara says:

      Well, Vicki, in Daph’s defense, she asked for help from the UH people to come on this site and defend her against me because I’m so mean to her and call her names. Do you see any of them? Goes to show how they have each other’s backs. And BTW: it’s as I predicted. They are denouncing the video as being too old to mean anything or being a “set up”. It doesn’t matter, there are more where that one came from and I posted yet another from a hauler who was arrested for cruelty while hauling a load to the TX slaughter house years ago. If the video had been recent, they would have said that it’s because they have to travel too far now and opening up the U.S. houses would solve that problem. They will denounce anything we give them, even Dr. Grandin!

      I don’t understand how they think that the treatment has changed — it hasn’t. They need to load and get them there ASAP and don’t care whether they are fed or watered on the way. And then, the poor beasts have to suffer even more at the hands of the idiots hired to kill them. They are beaten, prodded, shocked, and then brutally killed. I can’t understand why anyone would want this.

      • Suzanne says:

        Absolutely, Barbara. The treatment of the horses hasn’t changed. They still stuff ‘em in those too low double deckers and haul to wherever they’re going with no stops for anything. That feed lot in Presidio, Texas last summer proves that things haven’t changed at all. Those horses didn’t even have valid Coggins tests, let alone an EID. More faked affidavits. No, nothing has changed. That’s why the EU is almost at the point of banning US horses completely – which is what they should have done long ago.

    • Robert M says:

      She’s not leaving; she just needed to refill her prescription for Equine Serum Insulin. Will be back shortly…

  116. Beth Schang says:

    Greed and “the bottom line” – slave owners also argued the “my property rights” BS !! We are SUPPOSE to be evolving as human beings…to even THINK of bring horse slaughter back is to regress to ignorant, uncivilized, barbaric thinking. Absolute power corrupts absolutely !! I refuse to drink the cool-aid!!

    Interview With a Horse Slaughterer
    http://humanityforhorses.blogspot.com/
    “Here is an excerpt from Gail Eisnitz’s book “Slaughterhouse” when she interviews a slaughterhouse employee. This is difficult to read.

    If this testimony doesn’t horrify you, I don’t know what would. I do know that it is totally unacceptable to me that horses be killed this way. This goes beyond inhumane.”

    A horse that is slaughtered immediately ceases to contribute to the economy. A …
    See More

  117. okiestorm1 says:

    I was not going to post on this anymore but I think that if anyone truly thinks that starvation is not painful,then there is something seriously wrong with you!

    • Barbara says:

      Actually, Okie, some believe that going without food and water during severe illness, such as cancer, is healing and euphoric. And I have on several occasions fasted on just juice and water for 2 weeks at a time with no hunger or pains of any kind. In fact, I was energized. Now, of course, this is not EXACTLY like the starvation you speak of; however, the body is a wondrous thing and does tend to adapt to situations and limit pain. Suzanne posted a great article about this above. Having said that, I think, if given a choice, starvation, if without pain, is preferable to the tortuous ordeals these animals have to endure on the way to and at the slaughter facilities. It is cruel and inhumane no matter which way you present it. Once again, there are more alternatives than just the 2 unpleasant options presented. People need to work together to resolve their differences before coming up with options to resolve this issue.

    • Suzanne says:

      Okiestorm ~ I’m sure you didn’t bother to read what was on the link I posted so I will inform you with small words so you will understand – I hope. This was a report from human medical doctors about whether people in hospice care with only a short time to live should be forced to take in nutrients via tubes or grant their requests to stop all feeding – at their own request if they were of sound mind. They decided to allow them to starve it that was their desire, because it WAS NOT PAINFUL and allowed them to pass on peacefully.

      There was also a piece about a woman in her 80s who decided on her own to allow her life to end that way. It was part of a book her grown children wrote about all of them in this experience. The woman was NOT in pain and died peacefully. The children thought this had been much easier for all of them than if she had had an illness that made her suffer. They called it a “good death.” Now, I don’t really care what you think. I didn’t write this and I have read about death by starvation several times before. Mammals have died like this for millions of years, and the mammalian body has made adjustments to make this very common form of death easy and painless. You can believe it or not – all the same to me. It might be to your own advantage to actually LEARN something NEW once in a while though.

  118. okiestorm1 says:

    The ban has been lifted,the USDA will be funded to inspect equine processing plants once again. it has passed it is done get over it.

  119. Marie Ewan says:

    With all do respect, nope it is not funded, no it should not be funded, and the animal ag community is begining to see that. Here is why, your current herd of excess horses is more then 85% excluded from slaughter, that is nice number and result are more like 95%, but in a nice mood today. The only vialbe way to be profitable is to raise a whole new herd of equines for harvest, which I have said all over the place, but no one says no that is not gonna happen, you know why, I am correct. EU rules forbide transport to their meat market any horse that has had one dose of bute, China is 2/3 more likely to develop aplastic anemia in their populations, they are looking at the reasons for this, and will soon be following the same rules, beef, swine, poultry, this year will follow huge rules for export at a cost to their bottom line, and i for one will be dammed if you are going to go around those rules and cost more for the current ag businesses already in place, cost of hay, grain, and grazing land will go up for cattlemen, and in the end by violating the rules of the EU on imports, they the horse slaguther people are just asking for more rules, which our exports dont need, then you add in that if we progress with this, to export we will ahve to abide by the passport sysytem, and I dont need more rules or more cost, do you???? Open you eyes go read the rules, at the EU go use a google translator read the documents from China’s ministry for food safety, not sure that is the right name, but close, sorry China no disrespect, this is not about, you have a hrse for a few years, medicate it, get to take it to slaughter, think again, your horses are not eligbal at all, this is not 2005 when the cost of things like bute to human life was not known, this is 2011 going into 2012, and guess what bills are pending to ban for ever, export, transportaion to export any of the such for horse slaughter, we who are against it have watched, we have documented the inhumane treatment, the cost, the cause and effect, and will get those bills passed, and in the event that any slaughter plant opens before they are passed alot of people are going to wonder why they cut defense spending but chunked money down a black pit of wasted space. Slaughter is not the option, never has been, never will be, it is a cheap way to be lazy, irresponsible, bad business practice, much like buring toxix drums in the desert, and then going why is that a problem for you.

  120. LynnIL says:

    Marie, couldn’t have said it better. Or should I say it hasn’t been said at all until you said it. I’m so sick of reading all these comments about horse slaughter starting in 60 days yet no where has anyone talked to the EU if they are going to continue to ignore all the falsified paperwork filled in by the guys making the money on horses blood, the KB’s. There is already a campaign in Europe to let the people know where their horse meat is coming from and what it contains. Sue Wallis and her side kick keep saying they have investors but I ask do they have a market? Yes horses are still going to slaughter today but the EU is going to have to get tough on the paperwork soon and our horses just won’t make their restrictions. And so I’m thinking that Wallis is going to try and bypass the EU and go to China. They already have a horse meat producing market there so why buy our toxic meat horses? And on Wallis’s own facebook page, her own people who want horse slaughter are rejecting the NAIS the tracking system the USDA needs if they are going to inspect horses. So what does that tell you about the possibility of the EU buying our horses. No tracking system no market! Maybe Wallis is thinking that China will buy our toxic meat but I don’t know if they will. I don’t really think they are going to ignore their peoples safety like the USDA is ignoring sending our toxic horse meat to other countries. We will have to wait and see.
    Marie just like you I say the food safety rules will come into play here and all this nonsense of horse slaughter will go away. It is not even profitable to raise for slaughter. But it scares me that so many people keep talking about it like its a done deal when in fact they can open their slaughter houses but they have a long way to go to be able to sell there horrible product. Not only do they have to get past meat safety they have to get past the 70% of American’s who are against our horse companions being tortured to death. Glad to see someone else see the truth of this issue.

    • daphne watson says:

      ALL drugs have a WITHDRAWL period. EVERYONE. the FDA has but banns on certain drugs NOT because of they found it in meat, BUT because of what it COULD BIG word ther COULD cause in humans. ALL drugs COULD or MAY cause something in humans. take DMSO, hell it says do NOT get on human skin. I know many many ppl that apply it without gloves, nothing has happened to them.

      Im waiting on the FDA to forward me ACTAULLY reports of meat being tested in slaughter houses, because NOT one report can be found anywhere online. NOT ONE, which proves to me that they have NEVER EVER tested horse meat to find traceable amounts

      • Suzanne says:

        No, Daphne, all drugs DO NOT have withdrawal periods. Bute doesn’t and neither do any of them that have the “Not for use in horses intended for food purposes.” One use and the horse is OUT of the human food chain.

        Here are the Passport rules in the UK, which are exactly like the ones in the EU. The pertinent parts about some meds requiring permanent removal from the human food chain are toward the end, but I put **** at the beginning and end of those passages. This is what EVERY horse owner will have to live under in order to continue to export our horse meat abroad. Does anyone think this will really come to pass?

        UK
        The Horse Passports Regulations 2009

        It is an offense to own or keep a horse without a passport, therefore it is an offense to sell or purchase a horse without a passport

        It is an offense to fail to notify the Passport Issuing Organization of the change of ownership, this should be done within 30 days of purchase or change of ownership.

        Any horse born after the 1 July 2009, or which doesn’t already have a passport, must also have a transponder (microchip) fitted. These can only be inserted by veterinary surgeons.

        It is an offense to have more than one passport for a horse, if you have, then arrange to return one to the relevant issuing organization.

        Passports must accompany your horse at all times, including during transportation (except in emergency situations). The person with primary responsibility for the horse must have the passport made available to them if they are not the owner.

        Foals must have a microchip and passport by the 31 December in the year of birth or within six months of birth, whichever is the longer. If the ‘foal’ is to be moved before then it must have a microchip and passport, except where it is being moved with the dam.

        PASSPORTS — THE RULES AND REGULATIONS

        Commission Regulations 504/2008, The Horse Passports Regulations 2009 and Horse Identification (Scotland) Regulations 2009 require all owners to obtain a passport for each horse they own. This includes ponies, donkeys and other equidae and also zebra and other exotic equidae not previously covered. Horses require a passport by the 31st December in the year of birth or by 6 months of age, whichever is later.

        Foals born on or after 1 July 2009, must have an electronic microchip implanted by a qualified veterinary surgeon when being first identified. In addition, all horses that have not yet been correctly issued with a passport by that date will also require a microchip when being first identified. In order to protect the human food chain, horses that are not identified within the time period outlined in the paragraph above, will be declared, by the Passport Issuing Organisation, as not for human consumption on Part II of Section IX of the passport. Subject to individual Passport Issuing Organisations’ rules this method of identification replaces the need for a completed silhouette (horse diagram). The implanted microchip contains a unique coded number. Both passport and microchip details will be recorded on the issuer’s database and, centrally, on the National Equine Database.

        As from 1st July 2009, a horse may not be moved without being accompanied by its passport. There are exceptions to this rule e.g. when the horse is stabled, or on pasture (in which case the passport will need to be produced without delay); or if the horse is being moved temporarily on foot (where the passport will need to be produced within 3 hours). Enforcement officers are expected to be flexible and pragmatic in enforcing this particular aspect of the regulations. Keepers with primary responsibility for the care of the horse (e.g. keepers of horses on loan, full livery yards, transporters and race horse trainers) would be expected to hold the passport whilst the horse is in their care.

        Under new regulations (2009) it will be an offence for a keeper with ‘primary care responsibilities’ e.g. full livery yards, persons caring for horses under loan agreements, breeders, trainers and transporters, to keep a horse that has not been issued with a passport. Keepers will need to satisfy themselves that a horse has been correctly identified before accepting the animal into their care and ensure that the passport can be made available without delay
        .
        After purchasing a horse, the buyer must send its passport to the Passport Issuing Organisation which originally supplied the passport. This must be done within 30 days of the purchase and be accompanied by the details of the new owner. The PIO must complete the updated details of ownership and re-issue the passport to the horse’s new owner.

        If such amendment is likely to take more than a few days the PIO will issue a temporary document, which will allow the movement of the animal within the UK, which is valid for a period of up to 45 days.

        A valid horse passport must accompany all horses leaving the UK.
        In the case of a horse imported into the UK without a valid EU passport the owner must apply for a passport within 30 days. Passports may only be issued by organisations authorised as a Passport Issuing Organisation (PIO) by Defra, the Welsh Assembly Government, the Northern Ireland Assembly or the Scottish Government. Further details can be found at http://www.defra.gov.uk/foodfarm/farmanimal/movements/horses/documents/guidance2009.pdf.
        No horse may have more than one passport, although over-stamping the passport may indicate registration with additional organisations and societies. It is an offence to knowingly obtain a second passport for any horse.

        The National Equine Database (NED) contains details of passports issued in the UK, as well as information on the breeding and sporting records of some horses. It may also be used by enforcement officers to identify abandoned animals or those with welfare problems. It can be accessed at http://www.nedonline.co.uk

        If the horse is ultimately intended for human consumption Section IX of any passport issued before July 2009 must be unsigned or Part III endorsed and signed accordingly. Part III must be signed before the horse is presented for slaughter for human consumption. For passports issued after July 2009 all horses are considered to be eligible for the food chain unless the declaration at Section IX Part II stating that the horse is not intended for human consumption is signed. There are restrictions on the types of medicines that can be used to treat horses intended for human consumption. *****Certain medicines must never be used in food producing horses.*****

        A written record of the details of all veterinary medicines used must be kept by the owner or keeper of a horse intended for human consumption. The record may be kept in the passport or elsewhere as desired, but if a medicine containing a substance in the Essentials List (1950/2006/EC – List of substances essential for the treatment of equidae) is used, the record must be entered into the passport by the veterinary surgeon administering the medicine. At the time of publication government and industry were in discussions about clarifying the process. Please refer to the Defra website for latest guidance.

        The “withdrawal period” (the minimum length of time which must elapse between administration of the medicine and slaughter for human consumption) for each medicine used must be strictly observed and the horse’s passport together with its treatment record must be presented at the slaughterhouse at the time of slaughter if for human consumption.

        No horse can be slaughtered for human consumption unless six months have elapsed since any medicines on the essentials list (1950/2006/EC) have been administered. *****The administration of certain drugs permanently bars a horse from being slaughtered for Human Consumption and Section IX must be signed accordingly.*******

        If the horse’s passport is endorsed and signed as “not intended for slaughter for human consumption” the administration of medicines need not be recorded in the passport by the owner or keeper but the animal is permanently barred from slaughter for human consumption.
        In addition, whenever a veterinary surgeon administers treatment of the type listed in sections V to VII of the Passport, they must completes the relevant part of the horse passport. These sections of the Schedule cover some vaccinations and laboratory health tests.
        Under new regulations (2009) veterinary surgeons may well need to see the passport before fist treating a horse as they will need to be aware of the human consumption status of the horse before deciding which category of medicines may be administered to the horse e.g. human food chain suitable medicines or otherwise.

      • LynnIL says:

        OH YOU GUYS!!!! You didn’t give me a chance to answer my very dear know it all friend, the defender of the great BLM, daphane watson. You gave her all the info but I don’t think she will read it.She keeps saying the same thing over and over just like Wallis. You can give them all the info and they don’t care. It doesn’t fit in their mold of what they what to see happen. But both are now getting the wake up call. More and more comes out agaisnt horse slaughter and with 70% of American’s against horse slaughter that in itself will take any wind out of their sails that they will ever see the blood of our American companion horses spill on the floor of their torture plants for horses.

        But just in case daphne needs more on the proof that bute is banned here is more. Check out this site for one of the last reserch papers about TB’s going to slaughter with bute in their bodies at

        http://www.equinewelfarealliance.org/uploads/Food_and_Chemical_Toxicology_FINAL.pdf

        And a brief summary for your convenience:1. Introduction -
        Phenylbutazone (PBZ) was marketed in the United States for
        the treatment of rheumatoid arthritis and gout in 1952. Serious
        and often fatal adverse effects such as aplastic anemia and agranulocytosis
        appeared in the literature within three years of its use
        (Benjamin et al., 1981; Böttiger and Westerhom, 1973; Cameron
        et al., 1966; Chaplin, 1986; Deaths due to butazolidin, 1952;
        Dunn, 1972; Etess and Jacobson, 1953; Hale and DeGruchy,
        1960; Leonard, 1953; Mauer, 1995; McCombs, 1958; Nelson
        et al., 1995; Ramsey and Golde, 1976; Risks of agranulocytosis
        and aplastic anemia, 1986; Steinberg et al., 1953). The serious adverse
        effects of PBZ culminated in its unavailability for human use
        in the United States.
        Because of the bone marrow toxicity caused by PBZ in humans,
        the Food and Drug Administration (FDA) has set no safe levels of
        PBZ in animals intended for food and bans the administration of
        this drug in any horse sent to slaughter for human consumption
        (http://www.fda.gov/cvm/CVM_Updates/buteup.htm).

        Talk to you again soon I’m sure daphne!!

    • Marie Ewan says:

      Well LynnIL if she is going to China she best being going for a visit, as they are at this moment looking into implementing the same rules as the EU, we as an exporter, have a responsibilty to be up to date on our informations, and well some are not but they and those who follow will soon understand the pipers whistle, you know the one with the rats that followed, not to mention i love all these people with the cattle heads as logos, my gosh, my cattlemen have fought long and hard to export good execellent meat, not leaving out the rest of the animal ag world, for some goof ball to come along and make the rules harder on them, they have followed rules, they have done the homework, they have paid a price with their profits, now people like daphine, or what ever, not you lyn, come along and want to cheat the dam rules, do you not get that is why we have so many rules cause eveyone wants to make a fast buck, and guess what, your horses that have had bute are not eleigble, and if you have changed the paperwork at a sale barn and fixed it so it doesnt show who had it first, when the litigations start oh we will find you, you will pay for what is the word oh i know gross negligence, and again, I will be damed if the safety of the countries food supply, export reputation and alot more is going to go down the tubes, cause sue wallis and her group want to break the rules, open your eyes, now go run back daphine to your board and have them tell you how wrong i am or go read the rules. Thank you LynnIL for saying thank you, that is my real name i post under, and I a happy little thorn in the bush for them,

  121. Marie Ewan says:

    Yes, there can and I dont think I am allowed to post links but they are up on my facebook page for all to read, and by the way, the EU doesn’t have a Medical withdraw time for BUTE, it is a yes or no, their link on my page as well, give bute one dose, it is out of the food chain, they are requiring that of the world, and so will China so, captial letter that one, and the FDA, does not inspect meat, that would be the meat tester in EU, or Canada, since we have not nor will we again soon have horse meat inspectors, if you have ever given your horse bute, and you want to slaughter it for export or for sale, guess what, you are out of luck, you can slaugter it and eat yourself, but you can not slaughter it and sell it/export it, so you might want to go read the reports, and the US is following the same line, sorry??? to burst your bubble, and why would the money you would get from one slaughter horse what is that a couple hundred bucks mean taking a chance with a child,

    • daphne watson says:

      so PRAY tell me why was it that i received a letter from the FDA drug ppl that said that they have NO reports of testing BUTE on horses. I am waiting for a responce from the fda vet ppl to give me reports. I am talking about USA reports NOT EU reports. the FDA theirselves said they have NOT tested for bute or banned substances in horse meat. They banned bute for HUMAN consumption because IT MAY cause AA in children , BUT their email did say that MOST ALL drugs that they have apprved for human or horse use MAY cause a list of things.

      Until they show me proof from them directly that they have in fact TESTED for bute in horse meat or in horses I will NOT be told other wise. THE FDA doesn’t even have any reports listed on their page.

      • Suzanne says:

        Daphne ~ The FDA is NOT the agency that does the testing at slaughter plants! It’s the USDA/FSIS and YES, they have found bute residue in slaughtered horses. More than once. For a while they didn’t because they weren’t doing the proper tests. When they did it right, they found bute. It’s not a blood test, no matter what Wallis says. It’s a kidney assay – a more difficult and costly test.

        And horses that have ever had a dose of bute are banned permanently from the human food chain. That is the LAW – here, Canada, Mexico, the EU and I’d be willing to bet China as well. They are NOT the fools Wallis seems to think they are. Besides, WE have a responsibility not to export tainted meat. It’s illegal, unethical and disgraceful.

        You can rant and rave on the public forums all you want, but it’s still the law. The fact that you don’t like it makes no difference at all.

      • LynnIL says:

        Daphne, For a person who says she was in a vet course that sent her to see horse killing, it must have been the only class you attended because you don’t know much about biology. What you keep missing in all this is that bute and many other banned drugs are CARCINOGENS. Just so you don’t have to tacks yourself and look it up: Carcinogen: an agent which increases incidence of malignant neoplasms or tumors. That’s right out of my Safe Handling of Carcinogens handbook from work where I work with this stuff a lot. You will probably not die at the moment you ingest it but it builds up in the body and then cases CANCER. My mother had bladder cancer which they call smokers disease and she quit smoking 40 years ago. It builds up the body. So you and Wallis had better do some really research on this. You and Slaughter House Sue are selling meat to unknowing consumers and this meat can, WILL kill them. So how proud are you of yourself that you are killing people who are buying horse meat in good faith? It sure tells what kind of a person you and Wallis are. And to think you both have kids.To think that people are feeding this toxic meat to their kids. Shame on you!

        Looks like the only thing you got out of your vet class is horse killing 101.

  122. Marie Ewan says:

    Daphne, you are correct there is NO TEST FOR bute, and it is not allowed in the EU in horses for meat consuption, give bute you dont get to eat it, to ship to the EU you must have the same forms or similar that meets their standard, we do not have the passport system yet, we will have and bute will again be exculed as they dont let you eat horses there that have had bute, but since you have so kindly pushed the issue, I have been kind enought to email the EU with the intentions of your group, to ask for clarification on this rule. the rules is and has been for any meat imported to EU countries, China is following suit, that you are not allowed to import to their country any equine that has ever had a single does of bute period, it is a violation of international trade rules. For an equine starting in 2013 to be imported as a caracass slaughter or otherwise, it must pass the test, bute no eat no bute eat, you need to stop arguing with me and go argue with someone else, as for the test for bute, there is no test that test blood for bute after 48-72 hours other then testing the dead carcass at which point the blood has contaminated the whole lot, the test your leader claims to have does test, it test for the 48 hour rule for racers, it test for other drugs, but until you post the name manufacture of the company you so aptly claim will test for bute you are full of it, and even if you did get a test the countires that import horse meat wont take it, they say, not you not our fda not our USDA what they get to take into their country, so unless you are not going to give your horse bute dont argue, and the USDA stopped inspecting horse in 2007 the EU started their rules in 2009 think that maybe why you dont have the info you so aptly claim is not there. The rules have changed since the last slaugther plant in the US closed, they are in effect now, and will soon be applied to this country for export, it is a we agree to they way they do it, or guess what we do not import to them, and even if your letter from the FDA says oh cool, they do not get to override a countries Safety Rules for their country

  123. Marie Ewan says:

    Hey Daphne, read this from Dec 5th this year,
    Atamanenko was also concerned by the discrepancies revealed by the report concerning in the new Equine Identity Document (EID) system which is meant to record medical histories and keep horses that have been administered banned drugs from entering the slaughter pipeline. “The EID system is fraught with loopholes that are obviously being taken advantage by predatory kill-buyers looking for product,” said the BC MP. “Clearly the horse meat we are selling for human consumption is not a fit food for humans, especially children.”

    According to Atamanenko, the commonly administered drug “phenylbutazone”, more commonly known as ‘horse’s aspirin’, can cause anaplastic anemia in children if consumed in even the tiniest amounts. It was this fact that led the EU to stamp new passports on horses over the age of six months as ineligible for the food supply. “It is reprehensible that we have an industry without such a segregation system,” declared Atamanenko.”

    The NDP MP says the overwhelming majority of horses are not raised as food and are commonly administered drugs that are dangerous to people. “It is criminal to sell this meat to humans and the government must shut this industry down immediately,” concluded Atamanenko.

  124. vicki says:

    Daphne, as Suzanne stated so eloquently, all drugs do not have withdrawal periods. Banned means banned. The medical professionals, not equine scientists, have determined that the impact of the drugs on humans are serious enough to ban the substance. Equine scientists do not determine protocol for human health. That is up to medical doctors. Case in point, Wallis’ statement that they will use a blood test to test horses. A blood test is NOT the proper test to detect bute residues. You MUST assay the kidneys. Bute leaves the blood stream and takes up in injured tissue. The proper test is very expensive and since an animal that has received one dose of bute cannot be sent to slaughter, why would you expect slaughter plants to run expensive tests for a substance that should not have been administered to any animal sent to slaughter? The EU plants do not test for bute so of course, Wallis can say bute was never detected. The USDA did run a pilot test in 2004-2005 that did the proper test for bute and did detect bute in a significant amount of horses. They went back to the standard test and just kept sending meat that did not meet food safety guidelines of the importing countries.

    Wallis’ statement that banned drugs have never been found in horses is a flat out lie. The recent EU FVO reports indeed did detect banned substances in US horses in both Mexico and Canada along with falsified paperwork stating the horses were drug free. That’s not their fault, it is the US’ fault. That is something we control now. Have you asked Wallis why she hasn’t shared the reports with you? Are you not aware of the Mexican soccer team that tested positive for Clenbuterol? It was traced to tainted meat and is one of the banned drugs that were found in US horses in the EU FVO report. Why don’t you ask Wallis why she hasn’t shared the reports with her minions and continues to give you old information and reports that don’t pertain to horses?

    Wallis’ statement that a horse has never been mistreated in a slaughter plant is another flat out lie. There are numerous FOIAs that are available that list all the humane violations in the US plants. While Wallis continues to say they are fake, the CHDC reports at the plants in Canada were authenticated by the Canadian government. A new investigation was released this week at another plant in Canada. This one uses the captive bolt and is exactly what was happening in the US plants.

    Slaughter proponents that complain of the long hauls need to take another look because the violations don’t have anything to do with Canada and Mexico. There have always been and always will be exports to Canada and Mexico – with or without US plants. You need to view the transport violations documented in FOIAs. To this day, every documented violation occurred within US borders and were committed by people in the US. We control that, not Canada and Mexico.

    So you can continue to listen to Wallis’ lies or you can independently do some research and view what is right in front of you.

    • daphne watson says:

      THEN pray tell me VICKI why is it I can look up DRUG withdrawls ON EVERY meds that are given to cattle and horses and they have withdrawl times for every animal BUT the horse. WONDER why that is. The fda of course doesn’t do the meat inspection DUHHHH, the FDA says what is banned or NOT, and WITHOUT providing cold hard proof that bute is IN THE MEAT, it should not even be used as a banned substance. IF NO tests are DONE on the meat in the horse then one can’t really say its tainted. Doesn’t matter if the horse had bute 15 days ago or 2 days ago, within 48hrs the BUTE is not found in the horse.

      • Suzanne says:

        I don’t know why I’m answering this, but what the heck. Daphne – the reason you find withdrawal times for every animal BUT the horse is because, since the FDA doesn’t consider horses food animals, they don’t require manufactures of horse products to do tests for withdrawal times. That is only necessary for food animals. That’s why they are there for food animals and NOT horses. GET IT? No, I’m sure you won’t.

        The bottom line here is you don’t CARE. As long as you can kill horses and make a profit, you don’t care who gets hurt or even dies. Right?

  125. Marie Ewan says:

    Amy shoot I could not find your post to reply I hope you get this, if my statements said in anyway that there where not some breeders who where the kick ass bomb most wonderful horse people in the world, I am sorry, I have the utmost respect for the breeders who cut back, who said wow market no good lets work on finding good quality lines instead of quanity, again, if my post implied that there where not some good ones out there, I am sorry, those who have cut back deserve a medal of honor, and a thank you, please except my sincere apologies for making it seem that way.

  126. Diana B says:

    Can all you people how have “no way to dispose of a horse” tell me what you would do if your horse broke a leg? Tell me what your neighbor rancher does when a cow dies. Animals die all the time. Slaughter is not the only way to dispose of a large animal.

    Second point: Slaughter is FOOD PRODUCTION. Food production is not where we get rid of our rotten produce, or our skinny, sickly, old animals. Sure there are culls in the meat industry, but those breeding animals are kept under food animal protocols until they are culled. Horses are not raised as food.

    As a nation we don’t eat horse meat. The nations that do have a right to tell us what standards need to be followed if we are to provide them horse meat. None of our horses meet the protocols that the EU is using now. By July 2013 faking it is over and we have to have a system in place that is equal to the EU system or we don’t get to supply them horse meat.

    Daphne you can cry all you want that buted horses are safe, but you will never change the mind of the officials that count. Time to move up to the 21st century and start living in line with the new global food safety concerns if you want to sell food.

  127. LynnIL says:

    Why is it all of us anti horse slaughter people know about these regulations but the horse killers keep going ahead with plans to open a slaughter house? Who is going to tell the horse killers and their investors that there is no market for the horses they how say they want to kill? Anyone?? Anyone?? Oh that’s right, we have been saying that all along but they haven’t listened and they still waste the time of our greedy politicians with this stuff. Its time to wake up people! Let Congress get back to work on the real problem of jobs and the debt.

  128. daphne watson says:

    i seen that a so called rescue WHO TOLD THE ENTIRE WORLD i bute my horses if they need it or not is one here. CHICKEN shit can’t even take the afcts sprung at her. Blocked me, my hubby, and lots of others because they told her that bute can RUIN her senior life. BUT go right ahead beverly keep giving those seniors bute even if they don’t need it, BUT don’t come crying when they die of colic because you didn’t see the signs because they were covered up with bute in their systems.

    • Marie Ewan says:

      I do run the facebook page, and you are banned cause you are mean spitful and do not read anything other then what your leader tells you to, and no one is giving the horses bute to exclude them, it is however a very very detailed list of horses with markings chips ids and a national data base that is growing and growing that at some point the horse has had bute, we are following the law, notifiing the world that our horse has had, not being given was never said now was it, has had the law, why do you have such a problem with our horses and what our vet has given them and us following the EU rules, is it becasue you dont want them catching you?

  129. daphne watson says:

    oh and one more thing, I FOLLOW NO ONE> not sue wallis, NO ONE i do MY own research and find things out.

    • vicki says:

      Daphne, the EU and FDA have BANNED bute in ALL food producing animals. What don’t you understand? The reason you don’t see horses listed is because they are not classified as food animals by the FDA. The drug manufacturers are not going to spend millions testing the drugs that don’t have an outright ban for animals that are not raised or regulated as food animals. They are not going to retest drugs that already have an outright ban.

      You are correct. The FDA doesn’t do inspections and we never said they did. The FDA medical professionals, not equine vets or scientists, set the rules for the acceptable levels of drugs in food animals and the USDA/APHIS must enforce those rules. In the case of horse slaughter, they must follow the rules for the importing countries and the EU has the same rules as the FDA and in some cases, stronger rules. Bute is banned. Period. Clenbuterol is banned in horses. Period.

      You can banter all you want and try to explain away the rules but the bottom line is that if an ANY animal has received ONE DOSE of a substance at any time in their lives that is on the banned list of drugs, they can NEVER enter the food chain. Accept it and move on.

      Obviously you haven’t done your research or you don’t understand what you are reading. You might want to look up the definition of banned and prohibited while you’re at.

  130. Marie Ewan says:

    Daphne, you just go right ahead and bleive what you want, and I have a bridge you can buy as well, and I dont care what you think, the EU says no if your horse has had a single does every in its lifetime you cannot and will not import it to our country, if you try to do so it is a vilation of internaiton trade laws and a crime, and so yur FDA does not get the rgith to trump another countries policy. If you lie, and say your horse has not had bute and it has, you will be charged for breaking internatinal laws, in 2013 all horses or carcass that may be shipped to the EU for consuptions will have to have a certified passport, no exceptions period, and again, who the hell do you think you are telling another country what you are going to do and not do with products you ship to their country, they set their rules, their rules are bute it is banned from the food chain, they do not care what your group wants to test for, so all you have said is and I will relay that to them is your group is going to lie about the horses who have had bute. IT is a yes no question, “Since this equines birth has it had bute” long word, it is yes or no, not withdraw not 6 months, it is yes not, and they do not care wht you want to say is a withdraw time they say no period no, and again I emailed them with your groups name, all of them, and all names within that are listed. They do not test they dont bother, it is a again has had bute has not had, has had remove from food chain.

  131. daphne watson says:

    I don’t belive ANYTHING without the research and my research from talking directly with the FDA, says they have NEVER tested the meat in horses, the only reason why bute was banned was because of it MAY(big word) MAY cause AA in children. They admitted they WILL be testing the MEAT, not the blood, not the kidneys, BUT the meat for bute. and we are talking about HORSES IN THE USA not overseas.

    • Robert M says:

      Daphne;
      The next time you’re talking with the FDA (of course you are) be sure to ask them about your horse-serum insulin; I’m sure they would appreciate the education.

    • Suzanne says:

      Daphne, WHY would the FDA be testing horse meat at all? Especially for substances banned for food animals when the FDA categorizes horses as Companion Animals? Besides, it’s the USDA that does the testing of slaughter animals, NOT the FDA.

      Do you have any idea how it sounds when you say the FDA banned bute because it causes aplastic anemia in “some” children, but you don’t think that’s a legit reason? WHAT?? If a drug causes aplastic anemia in only 1 in 1,000,000 children or more, that’s plenty enough reason to ban it in human food. It doesn’t HAVE to be there and it should NOT be there. Some children, my eye. Would you take that chance with YOUR children? Well, YOU might, but most sane people would NOT – with their own children or anyone else’s either.

      The vast majority of Americans DO NOT eat horse meat and do not want horse slaughter. Go look at the polls for yourself. Besides, you would still have to be on a passport-type system to sell them to Americans or ANYONE else. My God!

      Daphne, hun, the UDSA HAS found bute in horse meat. Why would the FDA be testing horse meat for anything? Hmmmm… I believe you’ve been asked that question before. It’s hard to know how to answer you because your sentences don’t make sense.

  132. Marie Ewan says:

    Americans dont buy horse meat, there is no market, and the USDA will not let you give a horse bute and then sell it for human consumptions, none of your horse meat will go over seas, that is your market. And I am sure that the USDA as a matter of fact positive, they will not let you market horse meat that has been at any point in time had bute. I will get you a statement from them as well saying you are not going to sell horse as a meal that has ever had bute.

  133. Marie Ewan says:

    I have called and left a message with the USDA who unless you dont get it is who will get to make the call on if your horse gets served up for dinner here in the US, with all of the districts, spoken to some and waiting on the rest, but so far so sorry, even here in good old USA you wont be able to slaughter for cosumption by man or animal any horse that has had bute. FDA does not regulate this, “USDA” does. Will post their official response as soon as I get the rest of them, wanted to make sure I called them all. All distircts, covering all states.

  134. vicki says:

    Daphne, you just don’t get it, do you? If an animal has had a banned substance, the animal cannot enter the food chain. You guarantee this by having a traceability system like passports (something all of you oppose) on the front end. Food safety rules are in place to ensure the animals GOING to slaughter are eligible. You don’t test their eligibility on the back end. If you want to slaughter horses for food then you need a national passport system. That means more government regulation, more wasted tax dollars and more burdensome costs to horse owners so the owners of less than 2% of the horse population can continue to be irresponsible and not held accountable.

    With the vast majority of horse owners against slaughter, good luck getting horse owners to buy into a passport system. Either play by the rules or get out of the business. You are giving a black eye to our food producers.

  135. Marie Ewan says:

    Your question about if we are going to give bute to a horse who does not need it have been asked and answered, please do not ask again and be rude to this comment section what ever your name is I thnk Ms. Watson, as far as your research, unless your work is for a federal govenment agency who has the ability to make rules and enforce them it counts for squat, as it is incorrect, spwell of lies, however since you all seem to want to push the issue, a very detailed letter about your claims has been sent to the USDA for comment, as well as a similar version to the EU and the UK, with screen shots of your total lack of respect for their laws, Ameicans dont eat horse meat, so your only market is over seas, therfore you get to follow their rules, you dont get to make rules for another country. So if you will kindly direct any issue with the bute board to me as I started it, I will deal with you, not the people who choose to avoid your insane and never very nice tongue, so as my grandpa use to say, stick that in your pipe and smoke it.

  136. Jaime Cowan says:

    Marie, Vicki, LynnIL, Diane,
    A couple more questions(because this is so confusing to me). What are all of the excited backyard breeders, kill buyers, pro slaughter Wallis following Zombies going to do when the international companies realize that they cannot be trusted and never should have been to begin with. Just how many times do you suppose they will listen to Daphne’s excuse that (and this IS a direct quote) “I am waiting for a responce from the fda vet ppl to give me reports” or “oh and one more thing, I FOLLOW NO ONE> not sue wallis, NO ONE i do MY own research and find things out” ?? How many chances do you think they will take on American horse meat. Obviously they cannot trust the American horse meat industry already, as the leader of them is encouraging lies. As if you just don’t mention bute they won’t ask?? My gosh. They are feeding people this meat and to blatantly lie about what drugs you’ve givin it just to make a few bucks shows just how selfish and ignorant you really are, Daphne. Rules are rules. You guys cry because you felt we were trying to tell you what you could and could not do with your personal property. Well, now someone is. And that someone is about as likely to bow down to you as we are. NOT HAPPENING. NEWSFLASH: THE BRAINS OF DAPHNE WILL NEVER OUT PLAY THE GOVERNMENT WHEN IT COMES TO FOOD SAFETY. And BTW, this comment:

    “ha ha ha the plants here were worse then MEXICO, do you EVEN know what they do down there. Here let me tell you, They run a horse in a chute, take a knife and STAB IT OVER AND OVER AND OVEr again in the spin, on the neck. the horse is then down BUT BY NO MEANS DEAD. they can feel EVERYTHING, just not move. They are killed by having their throats SLIT WHILE STILL ALIVE> at least here in the states they were rendered BRAIN DEAD. they could NOT FEEL, WERE BRAIN DEAD. that means DEAD. I can’t belive you would think that the states plants were as bad as mexico.

    AND yes it can be regulated and humane. temple grandin has a deisgn in place and so far it has worked very well. NOT sure which plant in CA it is but reports have shown it is very well regulated and has proven to be humane for the horses.

    what part of this do you NOT all understand. The PRO side doesn’t want slaughter houses to be a dumping ground, slaughter set the bottom price for the horse market. FACE it . it did. I asked on Fb and I will ask on here. Since the pro side has an idea what will happen IF the borders are shut down, what they HELL is your side gonna do with 100,000 horses that will have no where to go. YOU really think that we are gonna step up. OH WAIT thats right all those rescuse out there will take them. FUNNY that THEY ARE SO FULL NOW you really think they will take them.. SO your side BETTER MAN up and do the right thing. THINK about what your side will have caused.”

    is by far one of THE dumbest things I have ever heard an adult say in my entire flipping life. Marie, screenshot?? That would be a good one. Daphne laughing about the level of cruelty inflicted on the horses sent to Mexico.

    And Daphne, if the borders would close down, there would be over 70% of the U.S. population that would come together as one and help place these horses. It does not take a rescue spot opening up to provide a loving and safe home to these horses. And guess what, Daphne. I am not a rescue organization. I get no funding. I get NO financial assistance. But I would be right there with them and I would absolutely offer to take a couple of the so called “unwanted” horses. And you better believe that I would NEVER turn my back on any horse….I’d be there with a trailer to haul away all of your “fugly”, “inbred”, “parrot-mouthed”, “sway backed”, “U-necked”, “crooked legged” or just plain old and worn out horses home with me where I would find them homes that would love them despite their appearances. Who cares?? That just goes to show ONCE AGAIN that whatever you lack in compassion, you make up for in smugness and arrogance. You are the last person, and I mean LAST person that I will ever take advice from on any topic.
    And lastly, you attacked that person you keep referring to, when you knew darn good and well that she had just put down a horse she loved very much. This was a horse that she cared deeply for and made a tough decision. That is what happens when we “AR” people rescue animals. We form a bond with them and it hurts us to see them experience any pain what so ever. That, in my opinion, is a quality not a flaw. My advice to you…don’t dish out what you yourself cannot handle. Do your research. And quit blubbering on and on like a stammering fool. Shut the lying pie hole of yours and stick to improving your poor deer hunting skills. You have ZERO respect for anyone and if you continue to behave in that manner, you will get it returned to you TIMES 10. No joke. I know you had a heart at one time. Where it went, I have no idea. But there is plenty about you that we could all point and laugh and joke about your painful memories…if you would like! Up until this point, I have been too tackful to do so. But you rubbing it in about her claiming to have given bute is getting old. SHE just said that out of hurt and anger. It is not true. I would not, however, blame her if she did when threatened by the likes of your kind. Grow up. Take some time to read what people are saying here and you would sound like a lot less of an idiot. Try it.

  137. daphne watson says:

    FACT when the FDA who is in charge of making the drug rules, STATE they only banned it because of HUMAN use, that is has NEVER been found in HORSE MEAT , you would think something needs to change. maybe NEW TESTS.
    and I can give you over 1000 DIFFERENT AMERICANS that DO and have ate horse meat. I know of 2 families that RAISE a horse just to fill their freezer every yr, so to say americans DON”T eat horse meat is another one of your LIES. and me RUDE on thsi comment page, SINCE when DO YOU OWN the farm and dairy page?

    • LynnIL says:

      Daphne, as we have said to you over and over and over again there is no blood test for bute or other CARCINOGENS!!! Carcinogens build up in the body over time which cause CANCER!!!! And it does not matter how or why they banned it,it is banned and the EU, the only market for horse meat right now, won’t take horses that have been given bute or other banned drugs unless you can prove that the horse has never had banned drugs and you can’t prove that because there is no traceable documentation on US horses.

      And we know people eat horse out there. Farmer Joe can kill his own horse and eat it but he can not sell the meat to other consumers because he can not prove that the horse never had bute or other carcinogens without a drug passport. Farmer Joe can eat his horse every last bit of it but he can not sell the meat to the public without inspections by the USDA. You are just such a hard head, Wallis follower. Baa, baa!

    • Marie Ewan says:

      Those regulations
      precipitated similar regulations in Canada and Mexico. For example,
      Canadian requirements went into effect on July 31, 2010, banning specific medications, such as phenylbutazone—the most common anti-
      inflammatory medication given to horses—and requiring a 180-day withdrawal period for other medications, such as fentanyl, an analgesic. Plese note the word banned, with respect to the bute, this is page 18 of the GAO report, this is from this paragraph where it speaks about the rules we are violaitng:Additional certification may affect Canadian and Mexican exports of
      horsemeat to Europe and, in turn, may affect the future export of horses
      intended for slaughter from the United States to these countries. In 2010,
      the European Union began prohibiting the importation of horsemeat from
      horses treated with certain drugs and requiring countries to document
      withdrawal periods for horses treated with other drugs before meat from
      such horses could be imported to the European Union. Those regulations
      precipitated similar regulations in Canada and Mexico. For example,
      Canadian requirements went into effect on July 31, 2010, banning specific medications, such as phenylbutazone—the most common anti-
      inflammatory medication given to horses—and requiring a 180-day withdrawal period for other medications, such as fentanyl, an analgesic.
      Also, since November 30, 2009, Mexico has required an affidavit by
      transporters that horses have been free from certain medications for 180
      days prior to shipment. Furthermore, effective July 31, 2013, the European
      Union will require lifetime medication records for all horses slaughtered in
      non-European Union countries before accepting imports of horsemeat
      from those countries. According to APHIS and horse industry sources,
      these requirements could result in shippers certifying that their horses are
      free of medication residues without having first-hand knowledge or
      documentation of the horses’ status for the previous 180 days.

    • Marie Ewan says:

      Letter one form the EU hold on one more coming up

      Dear Ms Ewan,
      Thank you for your message. Any horse in the European Union (EU) treated with phenylbutazone must be excluded from the food chain and be signed out of the food chain in the equine passport.
      Third countries which are exporting meat derived from equidae are obliged to implement a residue control plan which satisfies the requirements of Council Directive 96/23/EC. For equidae caught in the wild, the provisions as laid down for wild land mammals apply. These provisions foresee the submission of an annual residue monitoring plan which is restricted to the analysis of environmental contaminants (e.g. heavy metals). Countries so approved will be listed in the Annex to Commission Decision 2004/432/EC under the column entitled “Equine”.
      Live equidae exported to the EU for food production (i.e. slaughter) can only be permitted from a third country which has implemented a residue plan giving guarantees equivalent to those required by Council Directive 96/23/EC. Countries so approved will also be listed in the Annex to Commission Decision 2004/432/EC under the column entitled “Equine” with a supplementary footnote “Exports of live equidae for slaughter (food producing animals only)”.
      If equidae in third countries have been treated with either:
      (a) Substances listed in Table 2 in the Annex to Commission Regulation (EU) No 37/2010 (e.g. chloramphenicol, nitrofurans or nitroimidazoles etc) or;
      (b) hormonal steroids for growth promotion purposes or;
      (c) certain anabolic or gestagenic steroids for therapeutic and/or zootechnical purposes as specified in Council Directive 96/22/EC;
      these animals may not be exported for direct slaughter in the EU and meat from these animals is not eligible for export to the EU and should be entirely excluded from the food chain.
      Please see the following link to the website of the European Commission’s Directorate-General (DG for Health and Consumers for more information and for links to the relevant legislation:
      http://ec.europa.eu/food/food/chemicalsafety/residues/third_countries_en.htm
      For more specific questions, we suggest you contact the Health and Consumers DG directly. You can contact them by way of the following link:
      http://ec.europa.eu/dgs/health_consumer/dyna/mailbox/index_en.cfm
      We would also like to draw your attention to the Enterprise Europe Network (EEN) which offers support and advice to businesses across Europe. It is specifically designed for small and medium enterprises and helps them on business-related EU affairs. A list of the offices available in both EU and non-EU countries can be found at:
      http://www.enterprise-europe-network.ec.europa.eu/about/branches
      We hope that this information will be of use to you and we remain at your disposal should you have further questions about the EU.

      With kind regards,
      EUROPE DIRECT Contact Centre
      http://europa.eu – your shortcut to the EU!

    • Marie Ewan says:

      Daphne, my family was crawling around milking cows befroe you set foot on this earth, my great grandfather was a farmer, my grandfather was a farmer, in the deprssion do not even begin to imply i have no clue about farms, my son is an FFA member with honors and awrds out the ying yang, and my dads side farmed in WY in the 1800 so dont tell me about farming, it is a hard life, one you would not dream of understanding, farmers are the life blood of this country with out them we do not eat and for you and that nit wit to include farmer in any sentence is wrong, farmers are hard working, kick ass, live the life on natures terms, and you and all your pro horse slaughter people have no clue, the rules will get tougher on good honest people because of you, so for the record here is letter two, so know if you want you go call the EU and you tell them you are going to send something to their country they have banned casue you said you could, cause your FDA said you could, and I will laugh my ass off and it is a big ass let me tell you, no one makes a countries rules, but that country, so go read, Dear Mr. Ewan

      Thank you for your enquiry.

      Please be informed that phenylbutazone must not be used in food-producing horses (or indeed food-producing animals).
      This is because Maximum Residues Limits (MRLs) and withdrawal periods have not been set for this substance. Data on phenylbutazone were submitted for consideration to the Committee of Veterinary Medicinal Products but were not sufficient to enable the Committee to set an MRL. Before a veterinary medicinal product intended for food producing animals can be authorised in the EU, all pharmacologically active substances contained in the product have to undergo a safety and residues evaluation. See the legislation on veterinary medicinal products at: http://ec.europa.eu/health/veterinary-use/maximum-residue-limits/index_en.htm
      And: http://ec.europa.eu/food/food/chemicalsafety/residues/index_en.htm

      To my knowledge, phenylbutazone must not be used in food producing animals in the United States either. This seems to be borne out by an FDA page: http://www.fda.gov/AnimalVeterinary/NewsEvents/CVMUpdates/ucm124078.htm

      Then there is the legislation relating to the horse passports which states that the passport of each and every horse that ever received phenylbutazone would be clearly marked as not intended for human consumption.
      The legislation is now in place (EU Comm Reg No 504/2008), stating that all horses in Europe must have an equine passport. The legislation goes further to state that any passport issued to an equine over six months of age will automatically be excluded from the food chain. Furthermore, the legislation states that duplicate passports issued to horses will be marked excluded from the food chain.
      See: http://ec.europa.eu/food/animal/liveanimals/equine/index_en.htm

      As far as fresh meat is concerned, the legislation is accessible from: http://ec.europa.eu/food/animal/animalproducts/freshmeat/index_en.htm

      And you will find Regulation 2010/206 at: http://eur-lex.europa.eu/LexUriServ/LexUriServ.do?uri=OJ:L:2010:073:0001:0121:EN:PDF

      With kind regards
      Joanna Kniaz-Hawrot
      ——————-
      Information & Communication
      Health & Consumers Directorate-General
      European Commission

      • daphne watson says:

        marie deary, I KNOW ALL about hard work and farming, I GREW UP on one. feeding stock, cattle, horses, lambs, etc before the sun rose, cleaning out the barn, stalls, Feeding after dark. Out in hay fields from dawn till dusk then again stacking hay. I HAVE did it all. 11 yrs in 4h, being the ONLY person in that county to walk away with honors with horses. I have a 24×24 room that is stacked with trophies, saddles, buckles and ribbons that I have earned from the age of 5 till present day age 36. I have over 10 champion saddles, 24 buckles, to many trophies and ribbons to count. I have DONE IT ALL. 4 yrs in high school rodeo winning EVERY YR in over 6 events, then on to semi pro Winning there again. 8 yrs as a 4h advisor, SO DONT you DARE to I have NO clue about farming and hard work. because I would NOT have gotten where IM at WITHOUT hard work. My dad had anywhere from 60 to 100 head of cattle MY job was to grain them ON FOOT, no stupid fancy 4 wheelers, MY uncles and my grandparents(rest their soles(grandparents)), OWN sun king potatoes and pappys prides and dan dee and troyer chips, THEY have farms from PA to FL. They FARMED DURING the depression as well, heck even came from NB during the dustbowl. SO i have came from a long line of farmers as well.
        You MAY be older but deary I do belive I have more about horses, farming, etc under my belt then you WISH you could. Yes I will say it IM DAM PROUD of what i have accomplished in my short life BUT damit DON”T you ALL DARE tell me I have no clue about horses or anything as such.
        I have a college degree in horse management and breeding, I have certificate in equine massage, i have a certificate in vet assistance, I have hands on experience with slaughter from the local plants to the farm butcher, im a Equine trainer who has 12 yrs under her belt, (yep i have been training since i was in my 20′s)I have worked for many different vets, im an Ohio Reins volunteer, I am DAM proud of what i do and what i have accomplished. so don’t ya all dare to tell I don’t know anything about horses or farming.

  138. vicki says:

    Daphne, do you just make up stuff as you go along? They don’t test for bute so of course, it isn’t found. You don’t test meat, you test the horse. Even the standard tests they use that would never detect bute doesn’t test meat. They test muscle and fat. So once again, you don’t know what you’re talking about. And again, there is enough evidence for MEDICAL doctors that it is not safe for humans to ingest. Banned means banned. Bute is only one of several banned substances. No withdrawal and no slaughter. EVER.

    Sorry, but two families or the 1,000 different Americans (do you really know that many people or is that more hearsay from Wallis?) or 10,000 is not a market. It is a very small insignificant percentage of the population. If there was money to be made, it would have been sold here years ago. Americans don’t eat their horses, dogs and cats. Let the countries that eat horse meat slaughter their own horses. Our horses represent a minute percentage of their consumption and won’t be missed at all. We don’t raise them as food animals and they should be humanely euthanized as we do with all non-food animals. That’s our culture. Respect it.

  139. Diana B says:

    I talked to a nice lady from Germany today who wants to figure out a way to stop horse slaughter over there. I told her we were working on educating the world as to the fact that American horses don’t have a passport recording all their medications from birth. She had no idea, she said everyone in EU assumes that American standards are at least as good as their own. The see America as a leader in food safety. They have always trusted the products we supply….

    The word is getting out. It is possible the demand for American horse meat will drop to zero even before July 2013 when the final EU rule goes into effect and our horses can no longer get into the EU food chain with fake records.

    • Marie Ewan says:

      That is too cool, I have been joking about my google transltor and hoping i dont buy a goat, like goats but not this year, but Germany way to cool, and you are so right they have no clue what the groups have been doing here with the meat. And you know I would never have thought I would think this but you know if the UH had not pushed this that part in the GAO that says we are screwing up page 18, and the issue with th passports would not be coming down the pike, if they has just left things alone, the poor horses would still be going to Canada and Mexico, and being killed, but now with all this, I figured it up, it is going to cost each horse owner that ever wants to sell the horse to slaughter about 200 buck to register it as a meat animal, maybe more, and if they dont get it a passport, or whatever the US calls it, then the horse is automatic ineligble for slaughter, so, in the long run they screwed themselves and what is that ladies name they need to say thank you too. Not really but you know it is fun to poke back, my grand dad the farmer use to tell me “carefull what you wish for, not all wishes are good one”

  140. Diana B says:

    Daphne, no one cares if you think buted meat is safe. The horse meat marketplace wants meat that can be proved to have never had a dose of bute in the animals life. If you can’t prove that you don’t have a product to sell. But your property rights are preserved. You can offer it for sale. Just don’t expect to get a buyer once the final rule goes into effect.

  141. Mary T says:

    I can’t believe ANY of you people have time to have lives. Scrolling down through the comments from Sept 15 to Dec. 8 there are hardly any times longer than 4 hours without comment. I see maybe 15 or 20 different people and mostly the same 5 or 6. You’re fighting among yourselves with no NEW ideas or solutions. I work in horses all the time. I consider slaughter a necessary evil. You can’t legislate good parenting skills why in heaven’s name would ANY of you think the government could legislate good animal husbandry?
    Maybe we should get an already drowning in red ink government to build bigger animal shelters, train more personel to staff them, then find out where to bury all the bodies. Close both borders entirely to horse transport. How far will that fly??
    All that will still not make serious horsemen look twice at the conformational challenged untalented “rescue” foals. Daphne can sell $15,000 horses in a depressed market because true horsemen and women, know what they want, what they want to use it for, how to produce it, and how much it means to them. No matter what laws are put on the books, no matter how many insults are thrown at them this will NEVER change. Grow up, deal with it, and move on. The real problem caused by all the fighting, name calling, and “fact” producing that’s become a cottage indusrty over the past 10 years for of the four most prolific posters is this….. A good horse will still sell (I know, like Daphne, I sell them). The same horses that were considered good horses before you started the bus are the same horses conisdered good horses today. They are still selling, in my little corner of the world they are getting higher priced and harder to come by, for lots of reasons. The marginal horses we were told would be “loved and cherished” are producing now. The first generation of foals from the rescued, saved, and adopted are coming into the mix. Congratulations and enjoy.

    • Beverly Levitt says:

      Thanks Mary T. You just prove the anti’s point though clearly that was not your intentions in the midst of your insults. A good horse still sells, so your industry claims of a depressed market for a good horse are bull. Which means as the anti’s have claimed all along it is irresponsible breeding that has caused the glut and the downfall of our market furthered by our economy. Just because a horse is not a show horse doesn’t mean it doesn’t have good value Mary T. It can still be used for a thousand different things, none of which include slaughter.

  142. upbeatred1 says:

    @Amy – slaughter is never humane; you do not know what you are writing about. Captive bolt is too often misplaced and doesn’t knock the horse out with one shot. Read the recent series (forbes.com) that shoots that fallacy of humane slaughter down with facts and an interview with slaughter guru T. Grandin. Captive bolt not humane because it too often does not work. Plus, horses know they are going to be slaughtered (fight or flight animals) so that is not humane, either. Third, the horses in Mex are stabbed in the spine, not the neck. Presently the only humane ways to kill a horse humanely are with professionally administered euthanasia via injection or one well-placed bullet to the horses’ brain (that the horse is obviously not expecting). You can’t do either humanely on a slaughter assembly line because the horses sense what is happening and are rightfully terrified. Please get your facts straight before posting. Lives depend upon the truth, and this is serious business. Thank you.

    • daphne watson says:

      PER the FDA that they sent me in an email after I asked them about baned drugs.
      ” we do not consider horses livestock, the fda considers them companions, therefore we do not have withdraw times On any of the drugs that we have banned for human consumption, BUT vets can come to our site, and we will give them a website that will give them any withdrawl time for ANY drug phenylbutazone included. This means that bute does have a withdrawl time. Now if the status for equines change from companion to livestock with in our area, then we will start to test the meat,blood, bone marrow of the horses that are brought into slaughter houses.

      that came directly from the fda. funny they even say it has a withdrawl period and they only banned it because they NEVER tested for it.

      • Marie Ewan says:

        So you got elected to the Board of Health to all countries overseas I guess as well! There is no withdraw time, it has never been tested, but you know, if you want to wait 50 years to see how long it takes to withdraw before you slaughter your first horse okay. And the EU does not care, it is banned by them for import, a country wishing to import to them must have the same guidelines or not import horse meat to them. Your report from the vet people who one does not even have a PHD, does not trump a microbiologist, sorry again. And unless you get the overseas market to say they will buy it, which they wont, if it has had bute, then our FDA does not count, we the good ole USA doesnt get to make policy for another country. However, you will get to pay for a passport for your horses, that will meet their standard, hope you like NAID or NAIS, they are the buyers, you my dear child do not get to stomp your little feet, toss your crap and tell them you will buy this cause we said it is okay, their country, their rules. When they test it, when they get a withdraw time, well guess what you dont get to market it till those test are done, and last time i read the chemical compound, that will take years. So, thank you for costing us more money with having to have passports, and if you are going to tell me about the silly little DNS registry that some groups are pushing, it is a company in a cubicle, run by the IT man who works for the plant the cube is in. And also does not fit the overseas rules,

  143. vicki says:

    Daphne, bute is BANNED. There is not withdrawal period and there never will be. The meds that are banned in food animals have NO ACCEPTABLE WITHDRAWAL period. Banned means banned. One dose and the animal can NEVER enter the food chain. Bute is BANNED in all food producing animals, not just horses.

    And you might want to tell your buddies over at Comedy Central that just because inspections have been reinstated that you’ll not see any withdrawal periods on the labels anytime soon. You guys are a hoot. Do you not realize that in order to establish withdrawal periods you need hundreds of thousands of dollars to do the extensive testing and studies over a period of time? Don’t you guys ever do any research? And don’t be asking Wallis’ community college “equine” scientists. You need medical doctors that have the education and skills to determine what is safe for humans to consume. It is mind boggling the lack of understanding you guys have.

  144. daphne watson says:

    what part of the FDA TOLD ME theirselves that they have NEVER TESTED FOR BUTE, and IF the status from companion animals change to livestock IT WILL BE TESTED, if they do not find any traceable amounts bute will be taken off the banned list. DIRECTLY from THEIR MOUTHS THEY STATED EVERY DRUG including BUTE has a withdrawl period. EVERY DRUG even BANNED DRUGS. your VET has access to a website directly from the FDA that gives them the withdrawl times for EVERY DRUGS BANNED ONE INCLUDED.
    So i guess something that comes DIRECTLY from the place that placed the ban in the first place has no clue what they are talking about. THEY stated to me via an email that ALL DRUGS even the ones that they placed a ban on has a WITHDRAWL PERIOD, they even stated that they have NEVER EVER tested for bute in horse meat so they do not really know if it is still in the horse meat or not. GEESH and you ppl can’t read at all. Don’t belive me ask them

    • Marie Ewan says:

      Put up the letter, or shut up, the FDA doesnt make the policy, the USDA and the FSIS does, and here is how that goes, dear fda would you please respond to the withdraw time for bute, signed the usda/fsis, then the fda goes to work, so in about 50 years we will know, it is not a over night thing

    • Barbara says:

      Wow! You and your other pro-slaughter cronies have repeatedly harped on the fact that horses are classified as “livestock”. It’s funny that you have now stated that the FDA classifies them as “companion animals”, which we’ve said all along. BUT — we really don’t care what the classification is. You can call them “manbearpig” if you’d like and slaughter would still be inhumane and not a solution to overbreeding! As far as bute goes, it HAS been tested and it is found that it never completely leaves the body but is reduced by half, then half again, then again, etc. WHY are we still having this argument? It is illegal — period.

      • vicki says:

        We are still having the discussion because they don’t know what banned means and they don’t understand the breakdown of drugs in a animal’s system. It’s not the bute, it’s the metabolites that stay in the system.

        The only test that will detect bute residues is to assay the kidneys. That’s why Sue wants to use a blood test because it won’t detect bute and then she can say she tested, the horse is drug free and butcher him.

      • Marie Ewan says:

        We are still having this argument because Daphine ever so often gets orders to come argue, and in some way she thinks it upsets us, when in fact since we can read, and we know she is, well what did my grandma say, I know touched in the head, so we so kindly have to come back and explain to her, that 2 + 2 = 4, and banned is banned, and even if good ole paid a 500k charlie was paid to stand in front of congress and use verbs to make a statement, it is banned. But you know, heck maybe just maybe if we stick around good ole sue will show up and have raffle for us to buy tickets too as well, not interested in that either, see that is what happens when you have a brain you read, you learn, and you think for yourself not do the bidding of the masses, and oh please dont make me yawn with the you think for your self daffy, the UH group just again started the post trying to refute it again, so here we go again, next idiot please, but hold for a few as i am busy faxing those great forms for export that are so fake to customs with a formal complaint, one that follows the one filled with the AG here, you see, Daffy, banned is banned you dont get to rewrite law, sorry, but i know a really good therapist who specializes in your type of problems, it is called Stockholm i think, or brainwashing, meet them when i went to school, something you need to go do.

  145. vicki says:

    Daphne, you can’t be that dense. The testing has already been done and based on the tests, it was banned in all food producing animals. Why on earth would you spend hundreds of thousands of dollars on a drug that is banned? Your market is the EU and it has already been banned there, as well. Do you know what banned means? It means not allowed under any circumstance. Never. There are no withdrawal periods on banned drugs. Why can’t you comprehend that? That’s like saying if smoking is banned in an establisment, you can light up a cigarette after waiting 30 minutes. Jeez.

    You can talk until your blue in the face. The drug is banned. Period. And so is Clenbuterol, Ivermectin and a host of other drugs. They are banned. If you give your horse one dose in his/her lifetime, you cannot have him/her slaughtered for human consumption.

    It is comments like yours that have the country wondering what they are doing to our traditional food sources and how safe that meat is. That is the unintended consequence of horse slaughter.

  146. vicki says:

    BTW, You don’t even understand what they are telling you. They told you they didn’t test the meat and that is because the FDA does not test meat. Along with the drug companies, they test DRUGS, not meat and the effects of the drugs on humans.

    Before you embarass yourself any further, next time you get information have someone explain it to you before you post.

  147. vicki says:

    Ooops, I missed a “R” in embarrass. Sorry about that.

  148. Marie Ewan says:

    You know, I love it when I come back and all my best stuff is already posted, hehe, so Daphne, did you get elected to the EU health board or did they just tell you that we Americans get to dictate foreign policy

  149. Marie Ewan says:

    http://www.inspection.gc.ca/english/fssa/meavia/man/ch17/annexee.shtml#e5 go read daffy if it lets me post links, and if not it is chapter 17 of the Canadian import you will see bute is a banned one,

    • Barbara says:

      Don’t be too hard on Daphne. After all, she injects “horse serum” into her body for what she calls her “gestional dibetes” (or however she spelled it!). Goddess only knows what it did to her brain with all the drugs in it! :-)

  150. Beth Schang says:

    We are a Democracy where Majority is suppose to rule. Americans don’t eat horses and the Majority of Americans don’t want horse slaughter for human consumption brought back to the USA. The reasons are many and varied (horse slaughter is inherently inhumane, Bute, cost/taxes – Americans don’t eat Horses, icon of Freedom) , but the bottom line really is that of Majority rule – NOT Money rule; Not personal property rights, which must be balanced with personal property Responsibility. If you own a house and you fail to pay your real estate taxes, there are legal consequences. Owning/operating a car involves legal responsibilities. Animal ownership also involves legal responsibilities as well – and 70-80% of Americans are against horse slaughter. It doesn’t matter if one owns a horse, ever has owned a horse, as it is a moral issue; not one of money, property or heartless disposal of a living creature. The Majority of Americans don’t eat horses, don’t want their tax dollars supporting an industry that the Majority don’t want returned to the USA. The Horse Industry that supports horse slaughter is deliberately turning a blind eye to the cruelties inherent in horse slaughter as an industry and should be ashamed of themselves, promoting “love of horses” on the one hand, and “bloody cruel” disposal of “culled” or so-called “unwanted” horses on the other hand – as Americans we can and must do better.

    • LynnIL says:

      Let me add that both despicable amendments/bills that were had for horse slaughter, the one that now allows wild horses to go to slaughter and this latest one, got their place because of only one, two or three men who put the amendments/bills or left the language out of two bills that needed to be passed the next day and no changes could have been made or the bill would not get passed. Harry Reid had Burns put the language in for him to send wild horses to slaughter added to a must defense bill and at that time that part of the bill probably didn’t even get read by Congress. Who would have known this was put in no one was even thinking about slaughter wild horses. No one but Reid! And then it was just 3 Congressmen with big lobbyist’s behind them that spoke for the 70% of American’s who are against horse slaughter. Not letting our bills get to the floor for a vote is the only way that the pro-slaughter folks can get their dirty work done. This shows just how corrupt our Congress is. We need to clean house again in Congress.

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