Ohio’s veal standard: deal breaker, or board-based decision?

To read about board action at this meeting, click here.

REYNOLDSBURG, Ohio — One of the three main parties who formed a deal late last spring to keep an animal rights initiative off the Ohio ballot is saying the deal is broken.

The agreement, struck between Ohio’s farm leaders, HSUS and former Gov. Ted Strickland, required the parties to recommend to the board the American Veal Association’s call for group housing by 2017.

At the March 1 meeting of the Ohio Livestock Care Standards Board, members voted 6-5 in favor of allowing veal calves to be confined in stalls that prevent them from being able to turn around prior to 10 weeks of age.

First 10 weeks

The board’s standards do mandate group housing by 2017, but also allow for untethered stall confinement up to 10 weeks, in order to cut down on disease and contamination, cross suckling of other young animals’ navels, and to prevent costly expenses of converting to other systems.

The difference, according to HSUS’ Ohio director Karen Minton, is a “violation” of what the parties agreed to.

“When that provision was struck, so that they (veal calves) could no longer turn around, it was a complete violation of the agreement,” she said.

The Ohio Veterinary Medical Association also supports allowing calves of all ages to turn around. Its president, Linda Lord, recommended to the board the language of the American Veterinary Medical Association, which states “individual housing must allow the calf to turn around comfortably and to assume normal postures.”

Crystal clear

During a press conference at the Statehouse on Oct. 26, HSUS CEO Wayne Pacelle told Farm and Dairy “What the groups signed onto is crystal clear; it is a phaseout by 2017 of crates or cages that are so restrictive that the animals cannot turn around.”

He said to not allow the younger calves to turn around would be “a deal breaker for us.”

In a statement released to media today, Pacelle continued those sentiments, stating that if the “turn-around” language is not upheld, “we will have little choice but to renew the effort for a ballot initiative that we had hoped had been averted through a balanced and forward-looking agreement.”

Keith Stimpert, senior vice president of public policy for the Ohio Farm Bureau Federation, said the board’s decision is “absolutely not” a deal breaker.

“I think the key point is we’ve all committed to respect the authority of the board,” he said.

Pacelle spoke his own commitment to the board at the August board meeting, where he called it a “novel” idea, and recognized its authority.

“We recognize the vote of the citizens of Ohio on Issue 2, and we recognize the authority of the livestock board,” he said.

Different things

The agreement was not made with board members and they’ve generally weighed it as they have other recommendations. It was an agreement to make certain recommendations to the board, which Stimpert said has occurred.

“The agreement was, by and large, a set of recommendations, and those recommendations were made,” he said.

Some history

Board member Bill Moody told Farm and Dairy shortly after the agreement was announced, that the board was independent. He pledged to listen to its recommendations, alongside any other recommendations that may come along.

“I feel the pressure to perform and conduct the board’s business, but we can’t be puppets,” he said. “The board is not made up to be that way, to do things that way,” Moody said.

Ohio Farm Bureau Executive Vice President Jack Fisher addressed the board on the agreement during a July meeting, where he talked about the difficulty of making the compromise, but also what it really means.

Recommendations

Fisher reminded the board the agreement is a recommendation, based on the findings of a diverse group of industry representatives. Ultimately, it would still be the work of the board to decide what it will adopt as standards.

In addition to HSUS, the board has heard proposals from the Ohio Farm Bureau Federation, the Ohio Ecological Food and Farm Association, Ohio Veterinary Medical Association, its own subcommittees, consumers and concerned citizens.

Stimpert said the board must weigh all these factors, and then make its decision.

“The board has to consider a lot of different factors and that’s a god thing,” he said. “They’re doing their job as a board.”

Related coverage:

Rules put Ohio veal industry in jeopardy, some producers say (Feb. 25)

OLCSB advances dairy, beef, sheep and goat standards. (Feb. 25)

OLCSB advances more standards, nearing milestone (Feb. 11)

OLCSB advances more standards, electronic comment period to begin (Jan. 19)
Ohio care board gives go ahead to swine, disabled livestock documents (Jan. 5)

Swine subcommittee recommends stall-free by 2025 (Dec. 30)

JCARR to review Ohio’s first livestock care standards (Dec. 21)

OLCSB reformats livestock standards for last meeting of year (Dec. 8)

OLCSB has hands full deciding veal standards, future of livestock in Ohio (Nov. 17, 2010)

OLCSB veal subcommittee, animal rights activists at odds over housing

Ohio Livestock Care Standards Board approves civil penalties.

Care board hears feedback on veal standards, big decision ahead.

Care board adopts state’s first standards: Euthanasia

About the Author

Chris Kick lives in Wooster, Ohio. An American FFA Degree recipient, he holds a bachelor’s in creative writing from Ashland University. He spends his free time on his grandparents’ farms in Wayne and Holmes counties. More Stories by Chris Kick

153 Comments

  1. Barb says:

    Absolutely disgusting! I have never eaten veal and I never will. It is an atrocity to treat the poor little calves like that!!

    • doozledorf says:

      @Barb if you don’t like veal then don’t eat it.. I will gladly eat your share. It is people with your same mentality that is ruining agriculture here in Ohio.. If you like food on your table you need to watch what you stand for…If Humane Society of the United States has their way, we will all be vegans and running around like sick puppies…Everything in moderation! We need meat, veggies and fruits..
      that is the way God made us.

      • Cheyla says:

        Let’s think about who is the sicko here. Meat is murder pure and simple. Veal is the murder of babies who were torn from their mothers and placed in a crate that does not allow natural posture for their very short life. It is a horrible existence for any baby to endure. Anyone is advocates this is not only a murderer but a sadistic sicko. There is nothing wrong with veganism – if you believe in a God, then s/he made plenty of vegans on the planet!!

      • Regan H says:

        Cheyla what you just wrote, makes me think you are a little sick, get real with the world you live in.

  2. Farmer says:

    It seems this is a senario of animal rights idealogy or abolition by emotional use tatics and not one of science. This is the way that every social movement has been carried out by eliciting an emotional response. I wonder what is the place of laws made without any common sense or science but on emotions as we are seeing now. We know by history that utopian societies do not work and never have. One group who believes in abolition of all animals for food and everything considered animal use, and the other who believe in animal welfare but not to the expense of humanity. I heppen to believe it is time for some laws where people and their livelihood are protected from the ideology of the animal rights social movemnet. When we start living in a society where animals take first place over human beings when science is not used but emotions, there is a problem. The lawsuits, ballot initiatives and the cost to the animal industries, fur industries and the like. Seems the vegan animal rights groups are extremely anti capitalist. Just stop and think about the cost to society that the vegan animal rights movement has cost and, at this time we just can not afford the bill of the animal rights movement. Since dogs as pets have become scarce in some states, how long will it be before farm animal are being confiscated to live our their life on a santuary for what Wayne may term as “abuse”. If you think it will not happen, it will. I am for revisiting the AETA for the protection of people from harrassment from the vegan animal rights social movement. People certainly should be concerned with animal welfare but when we talk about animal rights we move into another and totally different thinking.

    • Nonya says:

      “Since dogs as pets have become scarce in some states, how long will it be before farm animal are being confiscated to live our their life on a santuary for what Wayne may term as “abuse”.”
      I’m confused by this statement. I hope you are aware that H$U$ doesn’t really do all that much for pets either other than passing legislature. They aren’t going after livestock because they’ve run out of pets to feed. They dangle those sad images of homeless pets only to bring in donations. I don’t support them anymore than I would peta, just want to make sure you’re not under the wrong impression.
      I suggest people do their own research on H$U$ and a good place to start is Humanewatch.

    • AmyK says:

      The decision on veal goes against guidelines from the American Veal Association, American Veterinary Association, and Ohio Veterinary Medical Association. Somehow, I don’t think these three groups are swayed by “emotion” in their recommendations. Since when is providing decent animal welfare an “emotional” issue? It’s a question of ethics, and the scientific consensus clearly backs it up.

      • Mary says:

        Amy, you are absolutely wrong about HumaneWatch. First, though, I’d like to ask why it is wrong for the businesses that are being affected by HSUS’s legislation cannot defend themselves? Exactly why is that wrong?

        If Humane Watch was not based on fact, why do you supposed HSUS cannot stop them? An organization as big as HSUS with a battery of lawyers would be able to stop an organization that was spreading lies.

        Humane Watch is based on FACT, a lot of those facts coming from the HSUS’ own tax filings! One only needs to look to see that only the truth is being presented.

        Thank God for organizations like Humane Watch that are looking out for farmers, pet owners, breeders, and the others that are engaged in business or pleasure with animals.

        HSUS’ rating as a charity keeps slipping by the organizations that rate charities. Are all the organizations that are exposing HSUS lying? Don’t think so…

      • MFW says:

        AmyK I would not assume that the above organizations are A) 100% right 100% of the time or B) aren’t swayed by emotion

        I think the majority of time these organizations are correct and they use science as a purely objective way of defining their position.

        In the case of animal behavior, it is not an objective science though, there are unmeasurable parameters and to believe emotion is not a part of either side of the discussion is to ignore reality.

        We have farmers faced with the decision of going out of business because they can’t afford to lose another dollar with such small profit margins.

        We have the Ohio Farm Bureau Federation back-tracking, side-stepping, money-wrangling, swap-talking, back door bargaining and double-taking because, frankly they fly by the seat of their pants and the decisions and recommendations they send down the pipe are entirely based on the almighty dollar and membership fees.

        You have the American Veal Association who was TOLD it would support the agreement made between the HSUS and OFBF. The producers themselves were not consulted prior to the agreement and the support from the Veal producers has never been strong. The association is now trying to back track and represent the producer’s wishes. I do not believe the association is truly in favor of loose housing calves under 10 weeks; I beleive the opposite is true.

        Then you have professional organizations like the OVMA and AVMA who generally have the upper hand in making scientifically sound decisions regarding what’s best for animal health and welfare. However, we suffer from the problem of having no science to explain what an animals desires are. In fact, the science does show calves housed in single pens are healthier. They have reduced rate of infection and generally thrive much better than calves housed in group pens. Now, as a veterinary student (member of the OVMA) I cringe to say it but one really must question the motives of the OVMA and the AVMA in discussions like these. It’s a medical-science based profession and their making recommendations that go against the science? That to me is backwards and is walking a fine-line of jeapordizing the profession. Perhaps their positions are more a reflection of the leaders within them (typically small animal, adademia professionals with little (if any) food animal experience) and are not truly representative of the veterinary profession at large? I believe that is exactly what’s happening.

        The recommendations OVMA has made are opinion based, factually baseless and entirely emotional. Want proof? Consider the fact that the OVMA is speaking in favor of large animal restrictions that don’t extend to the small animal world. Why? Because pet owners certainly wouldn’t like it, it’s not popular and it would not be a publicly favored opinion/emotionally based decision. It is certainly hypocritical to say you can’t dock the tail of a cow….but it’s fine on your pointer, boxer etc…. You can’t put an ear tag in a cow, but go ahead and crop the ears of that mastiff. That veal calf has to be able to sit, stand, stretch his limbs and do a dance in his crate (with no teather) but it’s fine to tie that dog to a tree or dog house. It’s fine to put the dog in a crate which inhibits movement while the owner is away. Why is it acceptable to breed pugs, boston terriers, bulldogs and the like who are so genetically dismangled that they can’t even breath? Answer: people (generally the people who think farm animals are genetically mutated) think they’re cute…..and the OVMA has nothing to say about it…

        I came from a dairy farm, I regularly observe other farms (of all types) I have an animal science degree, a professional animal scientist certificate and am studying veterinary medicine at one of the best institutions of its kind. If I’m reluctant to believe these decison making groups have the best motives, I think anyone further removed should probably be less apt to declare any one of them as having a non-biased, difinitevely correct and pure thought process.

        Just food for thought

      • doozledorf says:

        Hi AMY K…
        Tell the people who you really are… you work for HSUS..you get paid big money to get on sites like this and say the things that you just said…your taking money out of the mouths of the animals that HSUS say they are Helping..HSUS is nothing but a big pit of LIES..their ads are deceiving and make people think they are helping feed and save the lives of the animals when most of the money is spent on pushing bills to destroy agriculture..you should be ashamed of yourself for taking one dime away from the animals and working for such a dishonest group who is only out to abolish all animals…. As for HUMANE WATCH.. you are just like all AR people you are attacking the person not the issues.. NOW YOU HAVE A WONDERFUL DAY…Every time you touch one penny of your pay check I hope you see those poor homeless animals with those big sad eyes..

      • doozledorf says:

        Also HUMANE WATCH is made up of a lot of Rescue people…why would rescue people be against HSUS? because they know the truth about the dishonesty of HSUS and how they misuse their funds…they take food out of the mouths of the animals if all of the One Hundred and ninetee million dollars that they collected last year was used properly on the animals there would of been so many shelters with their doors still open instead HSUS steal the funding in which the people are lead to believe that HSUS is an Umbrella group for all Humane Societies which they are not..all they are is a multi million dollar animal rights activist group base in D.C. That Pay 35 lawyers and their staff six figure salaries, put money in the pocket of people who lobby for laws to ruin all aspects of animal usage. I urge anyone who loves animals or even like to eat meat to join HUMANE WATCH on face book and help us to defund HSUS…you will be surprised what you will learn about HSUS on that site…just amazing!! Keep informed and don’t let HSUS take away your rights.

      • AmyK says:

        Hi doozledorf, sorry to disappoint you, but no I do not work at the HSUS. And HumaneWatch is made up mostly of dog breeders, not farmers and not rescue people. And no, most of what it posts is not fact. It’s lies, distortions, and manipulations of the truth. Here are just a few of the myths and misconceptions spread by HumaneWatch. Click on each one to find out how true it is — most have not a shred of truth. http://humanewatch.info/blog/hsus-myths/

      • AmyK says:

        Oh, and to any rescuers who might happen to be in HumaneWatch, they might want to “watch” who they keep company with. HumaneWatch claims to support local shelters, but here is how its members really feel about shelters – http://humanewatch.info/blog/shelters/

        Contrast that with the HSUS, which had 35 pages of grants to local shelters listed on its 2009 tax forms – http://humanewatch.info/blog/shelter-contribs-2009/

  3. darwin says:

    Is there something here that says that Veal ranchers CANNOT allow the calves to do as they please?? Anything at all that says if you want to allow your veal calves to “be free’ that you cannot do so.. I think not. What this does say is that the HSUS is stamping its little vegan feet and saying ” we WARN you..” like some school yard bully that we will have our way.. When Wayne Pacelle starts serving “free range” veal in the HSUS cafeteria.. or even a burger. then they might have a leg to stand on.. until then but out of my veal chop.
    Perhaps the HSUS would like to use some of their millions of dollars of donations from little old ladies to start a “model” veal farm.. along with a model pig farm.. cattle ranch and poultry place.. until them the “standards ” they set will never be reached.. know why?? because their goal is the abolition of animal agriculture.. one animal at a time..
    Kick the school yard bully all of the way back to their DC hole..
    HSUS is a four letter word.

  4. KeithC says:

    HSUS has been looking for a reason to break the agreement. The “Agreement” was with Strickland, OFBF and HSUS aka Ohioans for Humane Farms (OHF). By the way, did you all know that the Co-Director of OHF, according to HSUS’s website, is not even an Ohioan? She is a Virginia resident. The members of the OLCSB were not part of that agreement therefore if they decide to not accept something agreed to by others that is not a deal breaker.

    HSUS is still using their “Signatures” to try and force the Ban on Exotic Animals, they are using exotic industry as a pawn against the livestock industry. Should anyone look at the original petition filed with the state, nowhere did it mention Dogs or Exotics, the petition was only for Farm Animals. Divide and concur, it is what they have done time and time again.

    I for one do care about Humane Treatment of Animals as well as Humans. HSUS has no vested financial interest in animal ownership or the business of animals. Animal rights is very different than animal welfare. Welfare is about the best possible humane care of animals. Animal rights is about controlling people and taking away their rights and privileges.

    The animal rights activists (ARAs) stop at nothing to manipulate law makers and the public which generally have no firsthand knowledge of animal industry practices. These groups are well funded and have cultivated a strong grass roots network. While we (animal owners) devote our time to caring for our animals, they (ARAs) have time to campaign and lobby. Their leaders are paid by the non-profit organizations they have founded. They have generated an inaccurate and unhealthy fear of zoonosis. They have created a problem, blown it out of proportion, and then propose a solution where none is needed. The tax free non-profit’s “business” is to collect charitable donations.

    If Animal Rights organizations actually do care about Animal Welfare, they why not put up some of the millions of dollars collected each year to fund for improvements instead of signing backroom deals with Governors and pushing unjust legislation that in the end just creates job loss.

  5. Susan says:

    I am not a vegan, but I do prefer to purchase my meat products from humane providers. I have never eaten Veal, and never will, because to treat a little calf like this is horrible. By giving it a little more room for a more comfortable short life would be a great improvement. The stress hormones that are secreted must be enormous. I don’t think I want those in my body, and I don’t want to put money into a pocket of someone who is so cruel. We who care about animals are doing them a great injustice by buying products from these types of farms…by doing so, you are basically condoning their actions. I’m not saying to not eat meat, just make sure as best you can that the time that animal had on earth was without pain and stress.

    • FED-UP &PO'd farmer says:

      Susan-you are COMPLETELY incorrect assuming that “stress hormones” are elevated in stalled calves-rather the complete OPPOSITE is a proven FACT. Stalled/tethered calves are MUCH less stressed than those in group settings. They are also COMPLETELY CONTENT-not in ANY pain or anxiety whatsoever. You are falling for the lies and deceits of the animal rights groups that have attacked farmers and spread these lies to brainwash people into thinking it is the truth.

      • Susan says:

        Point me to the literature that backs this up. I am in the medical field, and while I am generally focused on humans, I know that if a person is restrained and unable to shift position, they become irritable, in pain, have organ damage and generally become completely stressed. It is found that people who are “paralized” for respiratory issues become so stressed that oftentimes the drug used to paralize is dc’d. I will be hard pressed to be convinced that this is humane treatment. If I’m wrong, I will back down, but you have to show me the literature and back up for your statement.

      • FED-UP &PO'd farmer says:

        Here are just a very few, Susan: Individual Stalls vs. Pens UC Davis; Knesel et al., 1983 1993; Albright et al. 1991; Stull and McMartin 1992. There are MANY more. Now time for me to call you out…First of all, how many thousands or even hundreds of calves have YOU raised-and how much of your income is from these raised calves??? Next, just because we are farmers does NOT mean we are uneducated morons…I myself have been educated in the medical field-after less than 2 years I had enough and returned to farming-however, that doesnt mean I forgot my medical education-I am not trying to be rude-but using your human medical background to insinuate that you know about animal behavoior is unethical-animals are NOT the same as people and do not think or rationalize the same. Also, people are restrained either because they are combatant-whether from drugs, senility, blood chemistry imbalances, ect.OR due to health issues/surgeries. These people are agitated or already in pain to begin with. There is NO comparison between these people and calves . Individual stalled calves can move around in their stalls-they are NOT bound down that they cant move like a restrained person is. In NO way, shape or form are these calves in any pain or anxiety or are being abused. By the way, how many veal farms have you been to if you dont raise vealers yourself?? Perhaps you need to talk to these farmers and get some input from them instead of the false propaganda you are getting from the animal rights groups…

      • AmyK says:

        No one is saying group housing is the only option. Individual stall can be used PROVIDED the calves have enough room to turn around. That is all that is being asked, and it’s backed up by the American Veal Association, American Veterinary Medical Association, and Ohio Veterinary Medical Association. Yet Ohio farmers can’t seem to follow these basic humane guidelines. No one wants to buy anything from producers like that. You all are going to put yourselves out of business.

  6. darwin says:

    Susan and those like her want to believe they are experts in all fields of animal husbandry.. if you were writing about elephants i am sure she would know about them as well, Veal ranchers have no obligation to put the calves in individual stalls.. none at all.. don;t want to.. don’t do it.. shout it to the rooftops.. My veal comes from calves in a group setting. Then people can choose.. It is called freedom of choice.
    Susan and others use words like ‘must be” “should” “maybe” and other “coulda woulda shoulda” terms that have no basis in science.. but lots of emotional rhetoric.
    Stop the “create a crisis” mentality of the HSUS and the “factory fund raiseing” they promote.
    Friends Don’t let Friends Donate to the HSUS

    • Susan says:

      Obviously, you didn’t read my post. I never said I was an expert, just that I am in the medical field, focused on humans. I also said that if you provide me with literature, I would reconsider my opinion. You are implying that people who care about animals are all thinking with emotions, only. However you arrive at your warped opinions isn’t an issue. You can believe what ever you like about me and those who support humane animal treatment. Don’t really care. My concern is with the treatment of these calves. If they are in fact free to run, and aren’t isolated in little pens then I have obviously been misinformed. If you can prove to me that your calves are stress and pain free I will apologize for my “backward” thinking.

      • Mary says:

        Susan, you cannot equate animal husbandry to human medical science. It is not the same thing. Humans become stressed because they know there could be a different way. Animals live in the moment. Calves are quite content as long as they are kept at the right temperature, under shelter from rain and inclement weather, and provided with the proper food and water. Those things are what matter to them. They don’t dream about being in green pastures that they have no knowledge of. You should visit calves on a veal farm.

        When animals are stressed, I read that they secrete a hormone that affects the meat. This is definitely NOT the goal of any farmer! Keeping them comfortable is what it is all about. What is comfort to you is not the same as what is comfort to a pig, cow, or calf.

        We need to stop equating animal needs to human needs. Human needs have way too much emotion.

        As for HSUS threatening with that ballot again, I say let’s get it over with. Ohio cannot thrive if we are under HSUS’s thumb! That will only close down all our farms if we keep giving in to them because THAT IS THEIR GOAL!

        I would like to see Ohio do away with ballot initiatives. These initiatives are generally the product of people who are NOT experts and who don’t care what the effect will be on others. In lieu of that, we should at least require a ballot initiative to pass in the majority of counties, so that city people are not able to dictate to the rural people and farmers. They are not qualified to vote on something they have no knowledge of scientifically. Emotions are the worst way to vote.

  7. darwin says:

    if a baby were able to and frequently did suck on its own navel or genitals and cause disease would you say you should not keep them from doing this..?? if a baby in a group of babies were subjected to others sucking on their genitals and their sensitive navel areas would you keep them together? the answer is moot.. why? because calves are not babies.
    Susan has made the typical AR comparison here.. animals = humans.

    • Susan says:

      I think you just want to rant. Be my guest. Still waiting for you to put your facts where your mouth is.

      • Mary says:

        Susan, perhaps you should do your own research. The facts ARE there. Animal husbandry today is based on very sound scientific practices and thousands of years of experience! Farmers subscribe to publications, attend meetings, and continually learn. Because their very livelihood depends on how well they raise their animals. While you have probably never seen veal calves in your life. What makes you an expert on animals? Nothing at all. This is so typical of the AR extremists that want us to provide the proof and put it under their noses. Go do your own research, it’s out there. You remind me of Pacelle, the ‘expert’ on pets that has never owned one or bonded to one, by his own admission, in his life! Does anyone really think he is all about the welfare of our pets? The best way to stop HSUS is to stop donating to them. There are local shelters and rescues that really need the help because HSUS does NOT fund them.

  8. Regan H says:

    I hate the h$u$

  9. Susan says:

    Mary, I have indeed owned horses, goats, cows and calves, rabbits, dogs, cats, a monkey, guinna pigs, pigs, chickens, ducks and fish. All have been raised and cared for in the most humane way possible. Non were abused, tethered, kept in a manner that was not comfortable for them. I am involved in rescuing neglected and abused animals, currently have four in my home.
    You sound like a bitter, angry person, who just wants to shove your thoughts down others throats.
    I have done some, admitedly not tons, of research. I don’t proclaim to know it all, but what I have learned through my research is that there are some farmers and meat packers who treat animals horrifically. Granted, there are some who are committed to the welfare of the animals, even tho they are destined for the dinner plate, their lives do not have to be horrible.
    No where in any of my posts have I said I am an expert. I have offered to try to understand your view. I have been met with anger and attacks. I guess you have sort of proved my point. If this is how you would treat someone who is just questioning and inquiring, how do you treat your animals?

    • MFW says:

      Susan, can you elaborate more about the humane treatment of the numerous species of animals you have cared for?

      Please explain what the natural environment of each of these animals is like. Did you own one monkey or two? I hope you did not isolate such social creatures, even one so advanced as to use simple tools, technology and communication.

      Have you kept your guinea pigs in the same home as cats? Have your rabbits, chickens and ducks been exposed to your cats? What about your fish all of which are known to be prey of their natural predator…cats. If I were to measure glucocorticoid levels on these animals exposed to natural predators do you think they would be elevated? I don’t want to hear anything that has to do with how your animals ‘looked’ when you owned them. That does not matter to me in the slightest. As a veterinary student and farmer myself I’ve seen numerous veal operations. All of them have very content ‘looking’ calves.

      Were your dogs kept within their natural environment–outdoors? Surely they were never placed in a crate cage or even the confines of a home. I hope you owned multiple dogs so they could display their natural pack behaviors.

      The point being, there are a lot of safe, healthy, and beneficial “un-natural” settings which animals prefer to be in. Consider the fact that man, just another animal to the animal rights activists, consistently chooses to live in the synthetic, climate controlled environment of buildings. Many of our behaviors, customs and activities are by no means natural. In fact, societal norms have without a doubt placed limits on our rights to suppress some of our natural instinctual behaviors. Do we consider this to be unacceptable? Certainly not, we allow these restrictions because they instill safe environments for us to live in.

      I argue the same is true for our farmed domestic animals. The cows on my farm get to choose between a pasture and the barn. They spend all of their time in the barn when it’s cold and blazing hot. Not surprisingly they enjoy being outside on a nice 60 degree spring evening. They choose to live in the type environment provided for veal calves. Veal calves are not stressed and when housed in individual crates they are healthier.

      I’m also trained in the medical profession….one dealing mostly with animals, the veterinary profession.

      • darwin says:

        Oh come on.. what could you possibly know about animals.. LOL.. Thanks so much for a professional point of view.. and good luck in your studies to be a great vet..we need more people like you..
        Thanks

  10. Mary says:

    Susan, you have a FARMER telling you the truth and you are challenging him. You may have owned animals, but you are not in the animal agriculture business. That makes you a non-expert on this subject. Yet you are challening a farmer? Probably one whose father was a farmer, and grandfather. These people know what they are doing. You and I have no business telling them how to do it. I am not an angry or bitter person, but I am really fed up with what HSUS has done to us. What gives them the right to threaten and blackmail us? I have seen what they have done with dog breeders BOTH commercial and hobby breeders. I have seen seizures run by the HSUS that resulted in charges dropped because there was NO negligence and NO cruelty, yet the accused’s animals were gone and never returned and they were stuck with legal bills for their defense. They have gone overboard and have taken away our rights and our constitutional right to due process. Even our rights to own property. I have been involved with these issues for over 10 years now, on many lists that deal with animal issues and legislation, and what I have seen in especially the last two years is apalling! If this keeps up, YOU won’t have any animals either. They are against ALL animal ownership and use, and to even give them a place at the table where agricultural standards and requirements are set is insane! They want us all to be vegans. They think they should tell us all what we can eat, own, breed. Their agenda is clear, and anyone who thinks they can compromise with HSUS and that is the end of it is nuts. There is no compromise with them until they have everything taken from us. Commercial breeding, for an example, can be done responsibly. The right number of dogs to own and breed cannot be set. It is the number that can be taken care of meeting standards. I have seen anywhere from 3 to 100. Dogs are being euthanized by commercial breeders because the numbers keep being lowered. Where they had 100, now they are allowed 50. Within 10 years, dogs will become a luxury item, only afforded by the rich. Shelter dogs will dry up as they already have in the Northeast part of the country. Commercial breeding will get shut down. Including the ones that are doing a good job, meeting standards and requirements, passing inspections. Home/hobby breeders are quitting after spending all their lives developing their lovely line of dogs because of the unbelievably restrictive, unfair, and down-right insane requirements being forced on them. Some places if you have over 3 intact dogs over six months you are a kennel! With the same fees and requirements. Keep them comfy in the house no more, you have to build a regulation kennel for them. I have seen the very extreme and it isn’t pretty. HSUS has to be stopped! People like you give them power.

  11. Susan says:

    Oh my God. What planet are you from? I never said I supported the HSUS, and I never said I was against eating meat! You said that the information was from a farmer, and he “should know” how to raise animals. There are reputable and not so reputable. How do you know which one he is? I would like to think that he is a humane farmer, and have given him the opportunity to support his beliefs. I have not tried to push anything down anyones throat, only gain information to help me better understand the need to keep a calf in an area so small it can’t turn around.
    I have a puppy mill dog, rescued a year ago from an unreputable mill. I flew from SC to Utah to rescue this sweet baby, who, by the way, due to him not being socialized has left him stunted mentally, his ability to do normal dog things is far behind others. Yes, puppy mills need to be outlawed. Dogs are not comodities. I don’t know where you got your “shelters drying up” information, but I have lived in the NE until just recently, and the shelters euthanize close to 500 dogs a month…in almost every location. I now live in the south, where it is as bad, if not worse. I always suggest the “adopt, don’t shop” motto when I hear someone is looking for a pet. You have absolutely NO idea what you are talking about in this case. If commercial breeders are doing a good job, they will keep their “inventory” under a certain number. If they have X number and haven’t sold them, why would they think they needed more? To euthanize 3 to 100 dogs because they have over bred is horrendous. Just my point. People like that have absolutely no business breeding or even owning dogs. And, why would you have a “Pet” and not have it spayed or neutered? How responsible is that? Until the shelters have no animals for adoption, there should be a freeze on breeders. The only great kind of dog is a rescued dog…any dog lover will attest to that!! Dogs are not a hobby. They are living, breathing animals. If you want a hobby, garden, or paint, or work with the shelters if you want to be involved with animals. The “Hobby” breeders are in it for the money. You obviously only have the greed for money in your hearts, not the welfare of the animals. I will continue to check my meat purchases for any indication that they were raised humanely, and will avoid buying anything else. And, HSUS has nothing to do with it…it’s totally personal.Unfortunately, the HSUS is lacking in many ways, even though it’s intent began as an honorable one. I used to support this organization, but have stopped because I feel it has become too radical in many ways. But to be fair, it still has a compassionate side, and I am not seeing that side in your postings. For you, its all about the money.

    • Mary says:

      There are several new studies out that have identified several cancers that occur when dogs are spayed/neutered prior to full maturity. Additionally, their growth is not proper. When hormones are removed, growth plates don’t close for longer than normal. Resulting in improper bone lengths. This leads to more ligament and tendon injuries. In dogs, form follows function. Dogs with improper growth have impaired function, even though it is not on the ‘outside’. Additionally, spaying in particular is an invasive surgery with its own risks. Dogs do die occasionally during the surgery. Those of us that have purebred dogs get them because we know what their temperament, size, looks, health/health risks will be. My Dobermans have all had the same basic traits, which I love, although each has had their own individual personalities. Hobby breeders are called such because they make no money breeding the occasional litter. With vet costs, special care for the dam, special care and vet costs for the puppies, special foods, etc., the usual ‘profit’ is negative. Some of these breeders filed income and expenses in taxes, and the IRS tells them to quit filing as they are obviously ‘hobby’ breeders. That is what the term means. These are generally responsible breeders in it for the love of and improvement of the breed. Where did I ever mention mention for you to say its all about the money? That is typical AR anti-breeding speech and that is exactly what HSUS pushes. Shelter dogs/mixed breeds have the same if not more health problems. Per my vet, she sees just as many diseases and inherited problems in mixes. In fact, they inherit mutliple breeds’ health problems. And the purebred breeders are the ones that contribute to health and research to eliminate and treat these diseases, where as mixed breed owners contribute zero. Many dog treatments have gone on to provide humans with treatments and cures. Dogs are very much like humans in genetic make-up, weird as that may seem. In America, we have the right to choose what dog we want. Yes, there are many great mixes and shelter dogs, but they are definitely not better than purebreds. You protest, but you speak like an AR person. Dogs are being euthanized because of new legislation that has cut down how many you can have, just like our pet limit laws. To get down to the allowed amounts, dogs are killed. Thanks to the legislation. They are not over-breeding in many cases, the puppies all get homes. There are responsible commercial kennels, believe it or not. From our pets to our beef and eggs, the AR community wants to eliminate them all.

  12. Susan says:

    I have purbreds and I have mutts. They are with me for the love they give and the love they receive. $$ never enters the mix. I have had a ten dollar pound dog that we drove to the state vet hospital every weekend, six hours each way, motel for the weekend, for six months, trying to eradicate her cancer. We even rented an airplane and flew her there. Her being purbred would not have changed anything…we loved her unconditionally. The treatment she got didn’t save her life, but with her trials, it was perfected and my brothers secretarys life was saved, using the same treatment. You will never convince me that an unaltered dog is healthier than one who has been altered. All that I have read speaks to the opposite. My vet concurs, and I feel it is irresponsible to have a dog that won’t be used for breeding and not have it altered. Just my opinion. I would never have a pet that was free to breed. There are just too many unwanted animals that die every year to support that way of thinking. Just my opinion.
    As for puppy mills/”hobby breeders”/and so called responsible breeders, it appears to be status symbols, not members of the family. You are entitled to your opinions, and I am going to continue to believe in mine.
    I am stopping this diatribe now, as we will never get to a point of agreement, nor will I get to the point where I even begin to think the way you think.
    I will continue to fight for animal rights. You can continue to do what ever you feel is right. I think Karma will take care of the rest.

    • Mary says:

      Too bad your vet is not keeping current with the latest studies. Responsibility of owners in leashing and controlling their dogs is great for preventing unwanted litters. Works like a charm.

      Here is some reading material for you. There is more out there, just google for it.

      http://mmilani.com/commentary-200509.html

      http://www.tiarapoodles.com/neutering.html

      • doozledorf says:

        @Mary…you are right on! Responsible owners..good term. I am a small
        show breeder and have a small fortune tied up in my dogs. I love my animals and they love me, their attitude shows it in the ring and in my home. I am so against this “Animal Rights Movement” I could scream.. they are a bunch of sick waco’s that need to spend more time getting psychiatric help than trying to save every animal they see..not all animals need saved, but they think so. I too agree that altering animals brings on more bad health issues than keeping them intact, let alone the risk that every surgery has of loosing your pet.. No one ever talks about how many animals die while getting spayed or neutered. I am sick of the vets lying and standing up for spaying and neutering just so they can make some money.. the same way with shots.. according to all 7 vet schools vaccinations are not suppose to be given yearly..after the puppy has had its initial 3 sets of puppy shots, it will not need another shot for atleast 7 years, a titer test should be given at about 6 years old to see if the dog is ready for its new shot, as if you give yearly boosters you are making the shot not work, you are over medicating your animals…I am sure all the vets know of this ..yet they still give yearly boosters to make money..they are putting our pets health in harms way so they can make a buck. We have plenty enough problems raising good healthy dogs without the help of the Animal Rights movement and bad vets that put money over your animals health. As the Animal Rights idiot above stated “Karma Will Get You”…except I do not believe in Karma, I have a God and he is my strength, he will remove any mountain or any obsticle that gets in my way if I am true to him. So look out ANIMAL RIGHTS…your day is comming!

      • Susan says:

        Mary, I appreciate you giving these links, and I am very interested in learning more. I am not convinced, but I am in the learning mode, and will seek further information on this subject. I had hoped to learn something with out communications, and I did. Thank you.

        The name calling (by the way, sorry, dozledorf, I’m not an idiot, have a college degree, and am a nurse manager) has totally turned me off. No longer is this an issue we can discuss as adults attempting to educate, and inform eachother. Name calling is an instant turn off. I will seek more information, discuss this with my vet, and as I had said earlier, I have an open mind, and am eager to learn. But, from this point, I will no longer set myself up for the name calling.
        I also am a Christian..but I believe in Karma. Do unto others.. is the whole thing….
        Thanks again, Mary. You have given me food for thought, and I appreciate your attempt at educating me. I will for sure follow up on it.
        Best regards.

  13. Susan says:

    I meant to say “with OUR communications”…sorry, was distracted!

  14. doozledorf says:

    @ Susan, because you do not see breeding and showing dogs a hobby does not mean that it is not a hobby. A hobby is something someone does that pleasures them. Now as far as all the money that the Hobby Breedres make on their dogs…I would love to know where that money is. Everyone I know that raises dogs puts what ever money they make from selling pups right back into their animals and then some. Do you know how much money it costs to make a dog a champion?? We are talking quality feed, mine get meat veggies and fruit, training classes, gas comming and going to shows, yes it gets very expensive, unless you are walking in the hobby breeders shoes you have no clue.. as far as calling you an idiot, I’m just calling all Animal Right followers that…And yes even a person with a college education can be an idiot..look at some of our elected officials debating over if an Island was gonna tip over… When you get on these sites and start calling hobby breeders greedy money hungry..you will ocassionally be called and idiot. And by the way I have been up every 2 hours nursing a premie pup for the last 7 days..this morning he died…and you know what I new when he was born that he was gonna die but I still did all I could for the little guy…Hmmm we are real heartless!!! And by the way I am a retired R.N.

    • Mary says:

      Doazledorf, sorry about the loss of the puppy. It is amazing how quickly we bond even with newborn puppies, and what heartbreak they bring when we lose them.

      Susan is not in the cross-hairs, so does not understand what animal owners and breeders are going through these days. I follow all the legislation and it is horrific. In TX they want to require each and every intact male dog to be neutered if it is over 20 pounds! How supposedly rational people come up with the things I have seen in the past 2-3 years I have no idea. From breed-specific legislation, to mandatory spay-neuter, pet limits, breeding restrictions and limits, it is mindboggling.

      Just how did we become targets like this, and why does it not seem to matter to anyone that dog owners and breeders are not treated with the same due process that even drug dealers get? Raids without warrants, intimidation, outrageous fees, seizing dogs on trumped-up charges, breeder-bashing, and on and on. They want to tell us when and how often our dogs can be bred, when the only people that should be involved in such a decision is the onwer and the vet! These people that have never bred a dog, been in animal agriculture, etc., trying to tell those that have been doing it for most of their lives what and how they can do it.

      And now our good farmers are being targeted in the same manner. And thereby we are also targeted if we eat meat. You don’t hear us telling vegans they must eat meat. Who gave them the right to dictate to us? I am not a farmer, but I am absolutely backing them on their issues because we are all in the same boat. The ARs don’t want us to own or use animals in any way

      Susan, we are passionate about our animals and our freedoms, and when we are threatened we react. I know my dogs are dogs, but any threat to take them from me or prevent me from having them I will treat the same as if it was a threat to my child.

      Doozledorf, I hear you on the vaccinations too. I lost a dog to lymphoma that was a reaction to booster vaccs when he was 7. Never again! They get their basic set of shots, and then I titer them. I have not had to revaccinate any of them for parvo or distemper. Rabies are required by law, so until they pass health exemptions in all states for health reasons, I will have to do that. It scares me to death to give my 8 year old boy that has seizures a Rabies shot that he does not need. Dr. Jean Dodds in California is fighting for these exemptions for us and doing a great job.

  15. doozledorf says:

    Thanks Mary… Being a breeder can be very rewarding and heartbreaking, the rewards is not money by no means.. the reward is being able to supply someone with a wonderful happy, healthy puppy that will give them years of enjoyment.. an of course the heartbreaking is when you loose your older dogs that you have loved for so many years and some of the pups that do not make it for what ever reason… all the breeders i know have never been able to save a preemie…they are just meant to die…but being the good hearted people we are instead of letting it sit there and starve to death we do all that we can to give it the best few days that it has here on earth.. I have known breeders to raise them to 3 mos and then they die. Its a lot of work, but I would do it all over again.
    Yes it just sickens me that this movement is even taken place..How can anyone come to be the people that the A.R. people are.. I’m sure they ate meat at sometime in their lives. What made them change? Is this what they are teaching in shools? Where is the common since thinking? First its save the whales, save this save that…now its do away with animals? Don’t eat animals, if we don’t eat them, then there will be no purpose for them, People really need to go back to God’s plan..not the Radical People Plan… God made the earth the people and he surely knows what he is doing. When people were going to church and raising their children in church the world was a much better place….you see what happens when you kick God out of everything… I just pray that God pours his Wrath out on the Animal Rights movement…And he will.. Gonna get some ZZZZ’s haven’t slept for about a week caring for this pup… Thanks Again.. and keep up the fight.

  16. sookie says:

    You can argue on and on, but the bottom line, is the bottom line. Factory farms, puppy mills, slaughterhouses, greyhound racing etc is all about making money off the poor defenseless animal. For years they have been blaming antibiotic immunity to people taking ATBs when they are sick, when in fact most antibiotic overuse come from the meat people are eating.
    Thankfully other options are available to the consumer. Soy, rice, almond and coconut milks instead of impregnating cows over and over to produce milk. Meanwhile..what to do with the calf? Why, put him in a small stall (cheaper) and kill him in a couple months for veal.
    You can talk “science and statistics” all you want, the real fact is this…animals are not here for us to eat. There are plenty of better things to eat, and much healthier.
    Just my point of view…now let the attacks begin…

    • Mary says:

      Sookie, you are free to eat whatever you like, so are we. There are basic enzymes and nutrients in meat and dairy products that a vegan diet does not supply. Period. That has been proven in studies. A year or so ago, a young child raised on a vegan diet died of malnutrition in the U.S. I know people that were vegans and went back to eating meat because they never felt good while eating vegan. They had no energy and were shocked at the change when they added meat back into their diets. You can add all the supplements you want. It will not supply what meat supplies. Greyhounds, by the way, LOVE to run! They are exercised and kept in good condition because that is the only way they can race. There are so many myths about Greyhound racing, it is ridiculous. Most tracks work hand in hand with Greyhound rescues so the dogs that retire from the track are placed into homes. Greyhound rescue does an amazing job of placing a large volume of dogs.

      Cows don’t mind producing milk, or being milked for that matter. They seem quite content. And who says animals are not here for us to eat? Why would you think that when since the beginning of mankind, man has eaten meat. How dare you force your beliefs on us and think that your beliefs are better than ours? You don’t have to eat meat, we don’t have to eat vegan. America – where we have the freedom of choice. What a great idea our forefathers had. Contrary to what you think, vegan diets are NOT healthy. And to think that we could supply enough plants to keep this country alive as well as help feed the world is ridiculous. But then, you would probably be happy to see people starve to death. The disregard AR-ists have for human life is incredible.

  17. darwin says:

    So Sookie,.. what happens to “domestic animals’ if we do not “use” them Especially livestock.. if no one eats meat.. why would we need pigs?/ if no one drinks milk why would we need cows.if no one wears wool .. why need sheep.. and so on… why would we need any domesticated animal at all.Do you have room for a 600 pound hog in your yard? how about a 2000 pound bull? what should happen to domestic animals ? and that is a very serious question.. Domestic animals have been a part of human existence for a very long time. Allowing them to be come extinct ( the real goal of animal rights activists).. a good idea or bad.. I own a pet .. in fact several.. they eat meat.. is it ok to kill for them but not for me?. Our pets are carnivores.especially cats… so they MUST eat meat,.. should we just allow them to hunt in our city parks or starve..
    Children fed the “milks” you mention have died.. and their parents ( rightfully so in my opinion) prosecuted for child abuse and sentenced to jail: A few quotes from you “leaders”
    When asked if he envisioned a future without pets, “If I had my personal view, perhaps that might take hold. In fact, I don’t want to see another dog or cat born.” Wayne Pacelle HSUS

    “[A]s the surplus of cats and dogs {artificially engineered by centuries of forced breeding) declined, eventually companion animals would be phased out, and we would return to a more symbiotic relationship–enjoyment at a distance.” Ingrid Newkirk, PETA

    “My goal is the abolition of all animal agriculture.” JP Goodwin, employed at the Humane Society of the US,

  18. Susan says:

    Sookie, it’s nice to have someone in my corner. I don’t want the attacks, and I will certainly entertain facts, but the facts I have most seen are that the animals have a mostly horrible existance until they are slaughtered.
    I agree with your antibiotic theory. Young girls are going through menses much earlier with all of the hormones in the meats, and antibiotics are certainly a detriment to our health. I am not fighting this battle on this forum, however. I understand some of what they are saying, but I am not convinced that the treatment is optimum for the animals.
    I am not against eating meat. I am against the treatment of the animals from birth up to and even into the slaughter.
    Mahatma Ghandi said it perfectly..”The greatness of a nation and its moral progress can be judged by the way it treats its animals”. I know I can’t fight the battle alone. But, if I can save only one animal from torture will be worth the fight.
    There are humane farmers, and those are the ones who will get my $$.
    As for spaying/neutering and Hobbie breeders, again, the best breed is a rescued one…this year alone there will be over 5 million unwanted dogs put down. Better to adopt, than to shop. The status of a special breed has to change. Pets are family members, not commodities. I think breeding for the fun of it, and for the profit in it has got to slow down, if not stop. There are too many homeless animals now as it is. The shelters are bursting with unwanted animals, and to bring more into the world seems to be selfish and careless.

  19. darwin says:

    LOL I always get a kick out of the Gandhi quote.. Ever been to India?? Ever seen their animals.. Ever seen the starving street dogs.. the hordes of underfed cats roaming the street..the way they process meat? What a joke.. so when you see this quote think starving animals.. and starving poor people.not. If Gandhi’s country were judged this way they would be at the bottom of any ladder of humanity.
    Shelters are not ‘bursting” with animals.. in fact .. yes FACT.. many shelter are importing animals from other countries and from other parts of the USA to fill the NEEDS of the populace for pets..
    Buying a pet from a hobby breeder is the best thing you can do for lowing the pet population ( if that is your goal). your pet will come from a source that you know.. the pet will meet your expectations on size and temperament… you will always have a place to take your pet if you cannot keep it.
    Hobby breeding of purposeful pets is the best way to raise pets and purchase your next pet.

    • Mary says:

      You beat me to it, Darwin, on the Gandhi quote. What most misguided people do not understand is that purebred dogs all were developed to meet a certain need, from lap dogs that became loving companions, to the dogs bred to do a job. Herding purebreds herd sheep, cattle, ducks, and other animals; their work is invaluable to ranchers and farmers. Then there are the breeds that make ideal police dogs, search and rescue dogs, bomb-sniffing dogs, service dogs, guide dogs for the blind, and those hunting and retrieving dogs that are invaluable to the hunter. The Beagle Brigade that does such an awesome job at airports protecting us not only from terrorists, but from harmful pests that come in on smuggled fruit and plants. And my own awesome breed, whose primary purpose as Dobermans is personal protection, but also perform as service dogs, search and rescue dogs, military and police dogs, therapy dogs, even herding dogs on occasion. It is not accident that all these dogs are purebreds; they were bred for that intelligence, instinctive behaviorform, and purpose. Purebreds are beautiful, every one of them. From Corgis – bred to be low to the ground as as not to get kicked by the cattle they herd to the German Shepherd Dogs and Malinois that are a policeman’s best friend and help keep US safe, they all have a specific job to do. This explains their forms, which fit their functions. A responsible breeder is the only place one should get a dog. They should be breeding more, not less. They health test, they stand by their dogs, and work to better the breed. They invest their lives and their money into this endeavor. They support many health research funds to identify the genes that cause things like progressive retinal atrophy for example, and breed out these defects. The breeders I purchase from have become my friends and mentors. They celebrate every title and wonderful thing my dogs do, and when they pass on, they cry with me. With a shelter dog, you get who knows what. Which is fine if you just want ‘a dog’ that can have multiple diseases and inherited conditions down the road from the potpourri of ancestors that have who knows what in their genes. People that want to do away with purebreds are totally clueless of what it is to have a dog bond and live to be your helper and companion. Those are the ones that get foofoo dogs and dress them up like babies. Phooey, that is not what a dog is for! Imagine if we had mandatory spay-neuter everywhere and closed down all breeders. What then? Would YOU miss dogs? I wouldn’t want to live without them.

      Sick and tired of hearing people bashing purebreds and breeders. They should be celebrated!

      • Susan says:

        So, to live by your standards, all shelter dogs should be killed, and people looking for pets should only buy dogs, from breeders, with out regard to those in the shelters who can give love and be trained to do everything you have mentioned.
        I’m very sorry, but you have totally lost me. I was sort of leaning towards trying to understand where you are coming from, but your true colors are showing now. I know OF breeders who will tell you anything to sell you a puppy. I have friends who have bought from breeders and have had to watch their new babies die of Parvo, and then it is a long time before you can bring another one into the house….yes, there is disease everywhere…even the best of breeders have to fight it. Your stand against shelter animals is wrong, no matter how you want to wrap it.I got my “pure breed” from Utah, and my vet was very concerned about diseases there that we don’t have here…you are not making any sense. I know you want to believe what you are saying is right, but I have a right to disagree, and I can see this is a pissing match now. I am out of it.

    • Susan says:

      Unfortunately, Ghandi was not using his country as an example, but rather an embarassment. He is saddened that his country doesn’t have the strength or morals to do better for all creatures, not just mankind.
      I don’t know where you get your information on shelters and their populations. From all I see, and those I work with in rescuing animals, the ones that you think are being brought to provide more pets are actually being rescued from kill shelters and taken to areas where there are more no-kill shelters and foster homes. These efforts are allowing these homeless pets a better chance at adoption.
      Until there are no more homeless animals, the breeders should slow down or stop. Lets take care of what we have, then when they are well cared for, then the hobbiests can pick it up again. Unfortunately, while they are “perfecting” their favorite dogs, others are breeding out of control, and contributing enormously to the unwanted pet population. I doesn’t make it right, and no, the hobbiests shouldn’t have to suffer because of the others, but it’s gotta happen. I shouldn’t be denied prayer just because the ACLU doesn’t want me to, but it is what it is. Just to euthanize 3-100 healthy dogs because of changes is standards proves my point. How responsible is that? What choice did the animals have? I have a mill puppy, and every day I see him struggle with what should be basic things, I get more and more angry. I know there isn’t suposed to be a correlation between puppy mills and hobby breeders, but both are getting $$ off the heads of the pups. You can justify anything, but it doesn’t make it right.

      • sookie says:

        Right Susan, but unfortunately they would have to stop thinking about $ money $ and start doing what’s right and responsible. That won’t happen; thus, laws must be made.

  20. sookie says:

    I ended by saying “just my point of view”. I don’t think you’re correct in saying animal eating is much healthier. That has been proven wrong many times over. Same with milk. Are you saying people who are unable to eat or drink dairy will die if they don’t? My daughter was in school with a little girl who could not eat dairy. Well,she is a Mom today and is healthy as a horse!! (a humanely treated horse)
    I’m not pushing anything on anyone. My husband eats meat. That’s his choice. I don’t run away from the table screaming. I personally don’t feel it’s right or actually necessary in today’s world to resort to eating meat…so I stopped. My cholesterol improved, I am now at a healthier weight and my workouts, muscle tone have all improved. The last person I debated eating meat with, was doughy looking with a pastey complextion. And she was half my age.
    My dogs eat meat. But, I don’t. Maybe if people cut down on their consumption of meat, the animals could be raised more humane and not in those ridiculous factory farms. DO you really need to eat a steak the size of a roast?? Back in the ol’ days a piece of meat like that fed a family of 6-10 people along with veggies.
    What would happen to all the poor cows and pigs if they didn’t exhist for us to stick in factory farms and haul to slaughter?? That doesn’t even make sense to me. What kind of exhistence is that??? I would imagine there would be far less of them. THey might be seen roaming in their natural habitat. Similar to when you see a racoon, deer or other wild free animal.
    The world is going more veg, like it or not. THere is an excellent chance you will not go veg, but your grandchildren and great grandchildren will. It’s in all the restaurants. THe demand for it is out there. People do care about how animals are treated and are questioning all of it. Every aspect of animal/meat production. I did not care one whit 5 years ago, and today I am a voice for the animals.
    If your concience says its okay to eat meat, then by all means do so.
    Animal rights people are promoting veg eating just like the dairy and meat industries promote their meat-eating agenda. We have the same rights.

    • Mary says:

      But we don’t take away your plants, while you want to take away our animals that we get our meats from! That is the difference! There have been studies that prove meat is essential for optimum health. Can you survive on plants? Yeah, but is it optimal health? No.
      Scientifically proven. The studies that say vegan lifestyles are healthy are funded by —-tada—– Animal Rights Organizations. How objective is that? Pasty complexions and thin skin are vegan symptoms. Sorry. That’s a fact.

      And it is FACT that shelters in New England don’t have enough dogs to meet demand. They are importing them. Problems with that is dogs from the South often bring up diseases and tons of heartworm. Dogs from out of the States have brought in RABIES. And the final sad problem is that the dogs brought up are the cutesy small breeds, and labs/golden mixes, while the large dogs and black dogs die in the shelters in the South. That too is fact.

      I belong to several lists where the studies and articles are provided, and have been following this for over ten years. Whether you want to believe it or not, whatever, but what I presented here is ALL FACT.

      And let me say once again, Hobby breeders do NOT make a profit on their dogs. The expense of keeping, showing, health testing, and breeding them is much higher than what a litter will bring in. Remember that many breeds produce 2-6 puppies. 12 puppies is rare. I know a ton of breeders and they do not make money, let me assure you. The entries at dog shows have dropped considerably because breeders cannot afford to show like they did in the past. The cost of entries, gas, hotels, and meals are prohibitive. That all feeds into the cost of breeding a dog.

      Hopefully there are readers that understand all this. Some will never open their minds, do the research, or admit that they are wrong.

    • Susan says:

      As a side bar on the milk thing, my grandson was allergic to cows milk, so he was put on soy milk. He is in the top of his classes, and has been since he started school. He is the picture of health, no issues what so ever. So, if you WANT to believe animal products taste better, that’s fine, but in terms of health contributions, can’t agree less.

  21. sookie says:

    Just google “celebrity vegetarians” and you will see great examples of healthy vegetarians. Young and OLD.
    I’m sure there are healthy meat eaters out there too. But to be honest the motivating factor for me to stop eating meat was not health reasons. It was ethical reasons. The health benefits were just an added bonus.
    Speaking for myself as an animal rights activist, I am not out to stop you from eating meats any more than you are stopping me from eating plant based diet. I am out to stop factory farming. If a cow can’t be raised on grass, walking around, then you should not be raising cows. The average consumer 10 years ago (including myself) thought cows and pigs were raised on a happy farm walking around. It is bad for the animal, bad for the person eating factory farmed meat and bad for the environment. Not to forget mentioning the poor people living near the factory farms.
    I am truly being honest when I say most of the meat eaters I see are not looking too good. Too much meat and dairy will make you sick. Too many vegetables will not.

    • Susan says:

      I know people who have never eaten meat in their lives…their skin is radiant, they are the picture of health, and look ten to fifteen years younger than they are. I wish I had the willpower to be a vegan, I sure would. But, since I am not, I will continue to search out humane farms for my products.

      • sookie says:

        the meat you buy from real farms (humanely raised) will be much healthier for you. Kudos for you to make the effort to seek it out. :-)

      • doozledorf says:

        How do you know someone has never eaten meat…are you standing by their side 24/7 or are you just taking their word on that one? How do you know a farm is humanely raising your food are you there 24/7 watching to see that all the animals are not mistreated???

  22. darwin says:

    animals are sold/bartered or traded.. children are adopted..

    a·dopt (-dpt)
    tr.v. a·dopt·ed, a·dopt·ing, a·dopts
    1. To take into one’s family through legal means and raise as one’s own child.

    • Mary says:

      Correct. Shelters and rescues sell cats and dogs. For some shelters, it is a big business. A seizure of 100 dogs times $400 per dog is $40,000. That seems to be the going rate for those purebred seized dogs from what I have read.

    • sookie says:

      I’ll “adopt” my dogs, thank you.

      • Regan H says:

        I buy and sell dogs.

      • darwin says:

        you won’t ‘adopt” them if you pay for them.. you will buy them… there is no shame in purchasing an animal.. NONE.. nor is there any shame is selling them.. it is the Animal Rights activists like the ones posting her who use terms like “adopt” guardian” and of course their very favorite “murder’ to lower humans and to elevate animals. Anthropomorphism is alive and well in the AR circles.. along with all of the “celebrities’ you speak of. the ones who ‘adopt” dogs oh and are full of silicone and other products made from and tested on animals.. what a crock

  23. Mary says:

    Puppies get parvovirus because their clueless new owners have taken them out where they are exposed prior to finishing the vaccination regimen. Shelters have been running amuck with parvo lately. So what’s your point? Breeders disinfect their facility to prevent the disease. And I am talking responsible breeder that meets standards.

    Do some research on the nutrients, vitamins, enzymes, and minerals provided by meat. They are not present in plants or grains. Some are present in some vegetables and fruits but you would have to eat an enormous amount of food to get the same benefits. So most vegans take supplements made of SYNTHETIC materials. Is that healthier than getting them through meat? Don’t think so. Most people do not know how to properly put together a vegan diet and their health suffers for it. So much easier to throw a steak on the grill.

    Interesting debate. As I said, I don’t care what someone else eats. But no one has the right to tell me what I can and cannot eat.

    Factory farms are necessary to feed so many people. It can be done correctly. And again, you are thinking that animals are missing being in the pastures and putting your human emotions into play. As long as they get food, water, and shelter, they are happy. Eggs from free-range chickens, by the way, have a higher rate of contaminants, both pesticides and bacteria, than eggs from caged hens. Studies were conducted, and the eggs laid on the ground are not healthier than those from caged hens. Makes sense to me. Pigs kept outside are quite dirty animals, and lay in wet mud and feces. How is that healthier than being in a controlled and clean environment?

    • sookie says:

      The last news I looked at about pigs in factory farms, was in Korea. Where they have a huge problem with foot and mouth disease. (google “korea, pigs, cnn” and you will see the shameful video of the “happy factory farmed pigs” being dumped alive into a burial pit. All of them screaming, biting at each other to get out, and looking up desparately to their caretaker/supreme human for mercy….I guess I’m “putting my emotions into play” here.
      And most vegans do not have to take synthetic supplements. In fact, I am sipping a delicious smoothie from Robeks, with plenty of fruit, vegetables and protein. Unfortunately alot of meat-eaters are busy taking pills to help their poor digestive systems out.
      I agree alot of new vegans and vegetarians don’t know how to put a proper meal together…enter easy options…TONS of vegetarian pre-made foods. Just like pre=made food for meat eaters. Some healthy, some too pre-fab to be healthy.
      It might be easy to “throw a steak on the grill” but most people can’t raise, captive bolt gun, gut, slaughter and dice up the meat. It’s done for them. Same with vegetarians. THey need someone to put the meal together for them.

    • Susan says:

      Actually, the puppy had Parvo before she picked her up. The vet advised that she wait to see how the treatments went, and if this one survived, she could bring it home after treatment. It did survive, and is a real sweetie. Another case of a breeder telling a buyer anything to get her to buy from him..

      • Mary says:

        I’m sorry, but anyone who would buy and bring home an obviously sick puppy is, well, just plain stupid! Or was the puppy the picture of health and caught parvo when the owner took it where it should not have gone without vaccinations completed? Either way, I see this as the owner’s own fault.

  24. doozledorf says:

    Whoa…your kicking Butt here Mary…you know your stuff..these animal rights people need to eat some meat so their brains work correctly..Sookie been sipping the HSUS and PETA Cool-Aid… as for adopting animals… i “OWN” mine… I have been raising and showing top quality dogs since 1968… its my HOBBY.. GOT IT? My dogs do not end up in shelters, I have a strick contract…if they can’t keep them they come back here or I will place them for them…RESPONSIBLE BREEDER HERE!

    • FED-UP &PO'd farmer says:

      I cant agree with you and Mary more…however, we need to remember that these people are brainwashed and refuse to acknowlege other peoples opinions and the out-right truth. They are too self-righteous that they pathetically feel its OK to force their beliefs onto others. Susan was going to “backdown” if I provided literature to show veal calves werent stressed or in pain…I did so, and she is still going on about farmers abusing their livestock. It is gravely sad that there are people who feel they have the right to infringe on our constitutional rights and tell us how to live. We need to all stand together and fight this intrusions into our lives. And, while off-topic, we need dog breeders-I work Border Collies…and no shelter mutt will work like well bred BC’s!!

      • Mary says:

        Gosh, Dogs aren’t really off topic, believe me. They are against us all, dogs, cats, birds, exotics, farm animals, you name it. We are all in this fight together! They have just been after our pets a lot longer than they have been after the cows, pigs and chickens. Yes, Doozledorf, I OWN my dogs too. I am not their guardian, I am not their parent, I am their OWNER. They are my property – exceedingly spoiled property, but still my property.

        It is ironic that these people that have animals as pets don’t realize they are coming after THEIR animals, too!

        Sookie, what on earth does Korea have to do with our farm animals? They also eat dog and cat, right?

      • Susan says:

        Fed up, I have backed down, but I don’t agree with you. What you have provided can be challenged by literature from “my side” and nothing has been resolved. I am not trying to take your animals, just want you to treat them with kindness. I own my animals, yet they are a major part of my life, and live in my home, with my family. I treat them as dogs, only in the kindest way possible. And, I do refer to them as my family members. I treat them as family members, and I have adopted all of them from shelters or rescued them from horrible mills.
        I think you all can do as you please, but please, if you aren’t willing to hear our side, don’t force your side on use. I think we can agree to disagree on this. There is such a cold, holier than thou ring to all of your comments.
        Too bad…we could have all learned from eachother. I could have learned a bit more from you, and perhaps you could have understood my concerns a bit more. Oh well, it is what it is.

      • FED-UP &PO'd farmer says:

        First of all, Susan…farm animals ARE treated humanely-period. Just because we do not treat them like children does NOT mean we are abusing them. We dont care how you treat your animals-we dont tell you how to live or how to raise your animals-BUT you and your kind have the audacity to think you have the right to tell us how to raise ours. This is completely intolerable, and is what the entire problem is. You have every right to purchase animal products from whatever source you see fit-we farmers DONT CARE who you purchase from-BUT you DO NOT have the right to force us to do what you deem is proper. Mary is absolutely correct in saying that animal rights groups twist and distort their “facts”…the studies I provided you with were impartial studies and unbiased, but it is clear that animal rights groups distort their “studies”-just dig around and you can see that for yourself if you keep an open mind. It is still sad that you listen to these groups and refuse to get input from farmers who truely know about their animals…if you truely want to “learn”, you would take me up on this and see for yourself…these calves are content. With a population nearing 400 million, there will be differences of opinion, and the constitution clearly takes care of that. While you may not agree with someone, they are entitled to their opinions and beliefs, also. This means not forcing your beliefs on others and vice-versa. That is all we expect, but unfortunately the animal right crowd feels they are above the constitution and are pushing legislation in many states to oppress us farmers, pet breeders, hunters, ect., using outright lies and deceit to gain support from gullible people. That is what we are fighting against.

  25. Mary says:

    Susan, I should have been clearer and said the ‘AR-ists’ not ‘they’. I did not mean you specifically. I do hope that you do research. A lot of those videos you see from PETA and HSUS are staged and contrived. Actually proven to be faked, or the abuse was done by their undercover guy. I’m not saying all breeders are good, nor are all farmers good, but do we penalize all the good ones to punish the bad ones? Do we run them ALL out of business because a few are not responsible? No legislature is good that harms innocent people. I would ask you to go to http://www.naiaonline.org/ and HumaneWatch.org and do some browsing. They also have a list for their NAIA Trust portion of the organization that sends links to articles and legislation alerts, and there is good discussion as well. Legislation that seems good on the surface often can be misconstrued and place unnecessary burdens on the responsible and good farmers, breeders and owners. Because it is always the good ones that will obey the law, while the bad ones still won’t.

  26. Mary says:

    One last link to share with you all. Well worth reading. http://www.bewareanimalradicals.com/endangered_dogs.html

  27. sookie says:

    Korea is having a problem with diseased pigs due to factory farming. That could happen here too. After the hogs were buried alive they started to notice nearby rivers and streams near the mass graves starting to get polluted with the fat/oil from the buried animals.
    You have the right to eat animals, “own” animals, but no one should have the right to abuse animals. It sounds like you love the animals you own, so why would it be a problem for you to have laws to protect animals from people who mistreat them?

  28. darwin says:

    yes Sookie .. and pig could fly.. AR’s love words like “could’ “maybe” and “sort of” to refute actual scientific evidence..
    There are myriads of laws on the books to protect animals… more than can possibly be enforced.no more laws are needed.

    .why not take a trip to Korea and tell them what you think about their farming methods.. I am sure they would love to hear from you a.. and see you too..

  29. Susan says:

    This is for Doozledorf…the people I KNOW have never eaten meat are a Pastor and his wife, both raised by vegetarians, in a family of vegans. Meat has never crossed their lips knowingly. Of course, they may have had some meat byproduct or the like, but not with their knowledge. You can call this Pastor a liar, if it makes you feel better. I know he has raised his children without ever introducing meat to them, and, yes, they may have snuck a bit in school, but I am sure not enough to make a difference in their health,one way or another.
    I also know dieticians who promote less meat, more veggies, up to and until you can stop meat all together. It isn’t for everyone. I wish it would work for me, but I do love my grilled meats. I do eat less, however, and try to make meat a side dish rather than the main entree. And, to be honest, my cholesterol # has come down, I am actually feeling better, and sleeping better. Again, not for everyone, but it works for me.
    As a side note, I do NOT support PETA, I do watch the Humanewatch site, and I try to be as informed as I can be in my concerns.
    I think Sookie is correct in her comment “It sounds like you love the animals you own, so why would it be a problem for you to have laws to protect animals from people who mistreat them?” If you are one of the “good guys” why are you so concerned? Unfortunately, the bad guys (factory farmers who deliver inhumane treatment of their animals)are the ones making it hard on the good guys. It would seem that you all would be as anxious to stop the bad guys as we are, and then those of you who are humane farmers would have more business, better circumstances all around. Rather than spewing out viciousness, we should work towards a common goal. Obviously, it’s not going to happen. I will work in my own way, to banish the mis- treatment of all of God’s creatures, not just farm animals, but every animal who is being mistreated. Just because they are on a lower level in the food chain isn’t cause to treat them with disregard.

  30. Mary says:

    Cheyla, here is the definition of murder: “The unlawful killing of one human by another, especially with premeditated malice” Calves are not human babies. That’s moronic to equate a calf to a human baby. Or to equate murder to humane slaughter. And it certainly seems to me that being able to stand and lay down is normal posture for a newborn calf. Perfect example of twisting things, and outright lying, presented to the public in an effort to inject emotion.

    There are already many laws and regulations and requirements, overseen by the USDA, based on scientifically proven and humane animal husbandry practices. The newer legislation is designed to ABOLISH the use of animals. The laws already exist for humane agriculture. These new over-reaching laws affect the best farmers we have, requiring expensive changes, and practices that actually put the animals in jeopardy! Not only that, it will force farmers that cannot afford to meet these changes to close down their farms, with far-reaching effects in our economy. These farmers have families and will be out of work! Not only farmers, but truckers, butchers, companies that produce animal feed, meat markets, veterinarians, and many other businesses will be affected, right down the line.

    Meat is a healthy food. You cannot refute that, there are way too many studies that cite it as the very best source of protein you can get in a portion that you can actually handle eating. Of course, all things in moderation. I would not recommend a fatty steak every day of the weak, of course not. Because I am a rational person. Unlike the vegans and Animal Rights people that think they can tell us what to eat.

    MFW, YOU ROCK! We need MORE vets like you! Good luck to you!

  31. okiestorm1 says:

    OMG! People this is just what the HSUS wants, they want us to turn against eachother while they keep sneeking in the back door to take our animals away, yes all animals.Vegans do what you want I will still raise my livestock,cattle,goats, chickens for meat.i will still eat meat.You have no right to call us murders or anythang else for that matter, we take good care of our animals.I keep hearing from AR people that animals were not put here for us to eat, ok what are they here for then and don’t go quoteing the bible cause you will loose that fight!! OH AND THIS AIN’T KORES!!

    • sookie says:

      No, it’s not Korea. I sure wouldn’t want to see the same problems with diseased factory farms here!! Oh, wait… there are diseases running rampant in our factory farms.

  32. Susan says:

    If any of you know who Temple Grandin is, you might want to check out this page. It says so eloquently what I have been trying to say. I don’t want you to stop farming, or raising animals for meat. All I want is for them to be raised and slaughtered humanely. Please look at this page, and then you understand my intent.
    http://www.grandin.com/welfare/animals.are.not.things.html

    • MFW says:

      Susan, I know Temple Grandin better than I know you. I’ve at least met Dr. Grandin.

      I must say comments in your previous posts do not parallel her thoughts and recommendations. Dr. Grandin educates people on how they can better care for animals. She doesn’t advocate limiting producer rights she advocates better care for the animals in their care. Dr. Grandin also focuses a large part of her time on the small animal spectrum. She makes recommendations regarding humane care of dogs and cats. She has criticized pet owners in every lecture I’ve heard her give. How would you feel if she took her recommendations for small animals and formulated them into laws limiting the rights of small animal owners? Her legislation would ban all tail docking of pets and all ear cropping. Choke collars would be prohibited. Tethering an animal in an isolated environment would be abolished (so no more dog houses).

      She would limit no-kill shelters and either force them to stop adopting (a.k.a. hoarding or force them to euthanize). Dr. Grandin would most likely refuse the right of pet owners to lock their pets in cages that limit their ability to move around. She would most certainly pass a law banning owners from putting pets in cages without food and water for the 8-9 hours they are away at work…..something that happens quite commonly.

      Dr. Grandin doesn’t openly advocate for a lot of these laws because she understands something that the activists don’t. That being, you can’t coerce people into treating animals ‘humanely’. Once you educate them however you can get them to do almost anything when they see the value in it (for both them and the animals).

      Susan you discussed limiting meat intake for dietary purposes, now either that discussion was meant to be off topic or you’re directly implying that people should stop eating meat because it’s cruel….and the added dietary benefits should further persuade them. Perhaps I’m stretching it a bit…but I do believe the latter is the statement you were making.

      Temple Grandin does something animal rights activists don’t. She observes the situations she talks about, makes recommendations based on her experience and ultimately, practices what she preaches. When you crawl through cattle shoots and make recommendations based on what you have SEEN….not what you HEAR. You may draw a parallel. Until then, you’re wrong.

  33. Susan says:

    MFW, I believe you have missed my points all together. At what point have I advocated not producing meat, or raising meat for sale? I eat meat, and have no problems with raising animals for consumption. My concern is the conditions these animals are raised in and whether they are humane or not.
    Dr. Grandin is supporting my point, in that she wants the animals to be provided with the best life they can have during what ever life they have on earth. I can’t understand why you think that is wrong.
    I doubt seriously that she would try to prevent people from having dogs and cats as pets. Again, she wants them to be provided with the things they need, as best we can provide, to allow them the best life they can have. They need mental stimulational, socialization, love, companionship. Everything I hope pet owners provide as a rule. Yes, there are those who leave their dogs home alone all day, and others who keep their dogs in a crate while they are being trained. I don’t like it, and my dogs are not kept that way. I also don’t like it when mothers leave their six year olds home alone, but again, not much I can do about it, other than report it to the authorities.
    Dogs in a doghouse are anot teathered. Theatherd is when you chain the animal to a post or tree or some other stationary fixure. Yes, if you have to teather your dog to the doghouse to make him use it, it’s wrong. Much better to have them in a fenced, safe area, with the dog house available. And, while they are out there, throw the ball for them, make sure there is clean water, and a belly rub now and then.
    As for owning vs adopting? I have friends who have adopted their children. They paid huge fees to the agency, and to surrogate mothers. I guess then, by your standards, they now own these little ones. So, are they owners or parents?
    Dr. Grandin states in her literature that she doesn’t care if you call yourself the owner, parent, alpha dog or what. Doesn’t matter so long as you provide the animals with what they need for a good live, in all aspects. So, I am the mom, the owner, the alpha dog, all one and the same, and my dogs are spoiled rotten, know who the boss is, and still are well mannered, intergral members of our family. Not a problem here.
    If you put as much time as you spend trying to slam me into taking care of your animals, we don’t have any argument here. If, you are truly a good farmer, practicing humane ways, again, no battle. But, seems you are so hell bent on throwing poo that you are missing the whole issue. A humane, gentle life while on this earth is a good thing, for all of Gods creatures. Why do you want to argue against that?

    • darwin says:

      They need mental stimulational, (sic) socialization, love, companionship.
      says Susan..
      actually that is more what children need than pets…
      pets do not need human “companionship” we think they do because WE desire it..dogs can easily live without humans as long as they have food and water..cats even more so
      animal NEED food water and exercise. everything else is an extra..oh and one HUGE need that animals have that we deny them everyday by surgically removing their healthy sexual organs is the need to reproduce.

      • sookie says:

        Humans can live without humans too, if they had to. But they don’t prefer it. I know my dogs prefer a scratch on the neck, love, affection and attention. And room to move their limbs as God intended.
        They have muscles, bones, organs…. and nerves to feel the scratch on the neck too. Mother cows feel intense feelings when their baby calves are taken. The baby calves feel the same pain (or pleasure if you scratch their necks) as my dogs feel. Animals don’t have the same logical thinking we have as humans, but they definitely feel and experience fear.

      • Susan says:

        Darwin, you are wrong. Dogs are pack animals. They need socialization and love. Not necessarily from humans, but from other dogs. But, since they are domesticated, and not running in packs, humans give this, and the dogs become better adjusted. And, aren’t you forgetting what was said earlier? If they have never experienced it, they won’t miss it? Isn’t that what someone said about keeping the calves cooped up in small cages? How is that different from dogs. If they never experienced mating, how could they miss it?
        And, I notice you haven’t commented on the adults who have adopted/bought children. Your thoughts?

    • MFW says:

      Susan, if I missed your points all together, I apologize. I simply read the words written. I pointed out that you made an off-topic remark about your dietary consumption or you were trying to imply that not eating meat is more ‘humane’. I really don’t care if someone is vegan, vegetarian, carnivore or eats sand. That’s none of my business. Where I come on board is when someone takes their right to consume whatever foods they choose and tries to use it as an example. Tries to use it to make a statement that eating anything other than their chosen diet is somehow less humane, degrading to the environment etc. etc. Eat whatever you would like, that’s not to point of this conversation. I suggest making yourself more clear in the future. If you have a point to make, make it. If you know enough about the topic on which you are commenting you shouldn’t need to call on Temple Grandin to do it for you. Your ‘eloquence’ is evidence enough.

      Can you please point out in my previous post where I insinuated Temple Grandin would try to outlaw pet ownership? I simply pointed out their are issues in all forms of “animal ownership”. You said you don’t think a dog should be tethered to a dog house. You know people do lock their dogs in crates but you don’t agree with it. Would you support a ballot initiative that would make it illegal for those individuals to take part in such behaviors?

      Don’t bring me into the adoption/purchasing/ownership debacle–that’s a conversation between you and another poster.

      The basic truth here is you would like people to believe you’re in the middle of this conversation, you’re the innocent one being attacked. That’s not the case. You are criticizing others who don’t believe the same as you and taking it one step further by proposing there should be laws that would make their disagreements an illegal act. That crosses a line and when you support it, you’re no longer able to pull the innocent by-stander card.

      As for your argument that I’m attacking you? That’s just a way for you to step away from the argument at hand. Take a bold step forward and own your comments. I haven’t spent much time ‘ridiculing’ you. I have certainly been on this site less time than you.

      And to tell me that I should spend more time caring for my animals is a laughable offense. I was born on a farm, have cared for our cows my entire life. I’ve worked in veterinary clinics (small animal and large animal) since my freshman year of high school. I have a B.S. in animal sciences and I’m currently in veterinary school. I think I’ve spent a little time caring for my animals…..and others. Recognizing the complexity behind meeting the world’s demand for food and treating animals humanely isn’t easy. Of course to you it is, it’s just a matter of getting on the internet or doing a google inquiry.

      When is the last time you sat down at your ‘humanely’ cooked meal and thought about the trade-offs that were made to produce it? Again, for those in this country who want to eat “free-range”, “organic”, “all natural” etc. etc. by all means do as you please, there is a farmer who is more than happy to take a premium price for the food placed on your plate. While you think about the ‘humanity’ of your meal though be sure to remember that if ‘conventional technologies’ were used to produce your food the amount produced could have likely been tripled. You probably don’t care…to you the extra money you paid is the price of ‘humanity’ to me, and others like me who have studied in foreign countries and witnessed the devastation of starvation we see some of your ‘humane’, ‘fad’ consumption habits as a direct threat to food security on a global basis. Your meal has a gigantic carbon footprint, consumed massive amounts of land but at the end of the day, there’s a nice meal on your plate. Think the same is true for that starving kid in Africa?

      There are plenty of ways to eat ‘humanely’ produced foods and I encourage people to start putting the human element back into their decision making models.

      Susan, at the end of the day I really do believe you’re a caring person. Most likely you really do want what’s best for animals. Wanting to see them live their lives as best as possible prior to being someone’s meal is not an evil concept. I respect you for that. Please try to understand though there is a world beyond your front door. There are repercussions for every decision we make. Food production is incredibly complex and you really have no way of understanding it, because, well you aren’t a part of it. You haven’t studied it. Everything you read on the internet is motivated by profit (perhaps with the exception of .gov sites). Consider the motive next time you read about the perils of agriculture. Consider the costs of that ‘humanely’ produced cut of meat. If you feel the costs are worth it, fine. You have the right to that decision and I respect it. Reach out and try to tell others who believe differently that they’re cruel and you’re going to be hearing from me again in the future.

      • MFW says:

        Susan you use the argument that dogs can have their pack behaviors replaced with human interaction because they don’t know any different. That’s a fair argument when you are using it in reference to the comment about calves in crates knowing no different. However, you’re using this as an argument to say it’s okay to deprive dogs of their natural behaviors on a thread discussing the removal of producer rights to do the same to veal calves.

        In other words you’re arguing that it’s okay for you to synthetically feel the social needs of your dogs but you want it to be illegal for farmers to do the same with their calves. A little hypocritical if you ask me. Certainly a flawed argument on your part.

      • darwin says:

        WOW I want you to be MY vet.. can you please teach other vets when your graduate and pass along your expertise to others while in school? THANK YOU FOR BEING THERE!!!!!!! ( my pets thank you too..)

  34. Susan says:

    OH yeah, and I eat less meat for several reasons. First, my cholesterol was high, and since I have decided to eat less meat, it is coming down to the right levels. Second, I eat from humane sources, and it is a bit more expensive, so it helps to eat less. I eat meat at almost every meal, but as a side, not as an entree. It’s a personal thing, so why does that upset you?

  35. doozledorf says:

    Susan, where do you buy this Humane meat at? does it say on the label that this cow or pig or what ever has been humanely raised? Why are you paying more for it? Does it cost more to raise meat that is humanely treated… I go shopping every day and have never read on a label as to how an animal was treated… i truely think someone is pulling the wool over your eyes and you are falling for it…LOL…kinda like HSUS is doing to the general public…LOL…You have a great day now…off to the store to buy some steak, gonna read those labels….haha..what a bunch of CRAP!

    • sookie says:

      I’m not a farmer, but I would think that raising an animal the “right” way for food production takes more money. Isn’t money the reason factory farming got started in the first place? Build the factory, cram them in, mix in some antibiotics and hormones?
      My parents used to buy half of a cow from a farmer that was recommended to them. CHickens too. It’s worth the price to get quality meat for some meat eaters. They pay more, but they prefer to eat less than more in exchange.

      • doozledorf says:

        I am so glad for forums like this…it lets the public see what il-logical thinking the AR movement has.. Sookie are you a child..your writing kinda makes me think so. Maybe your brain is not getting enough protein. Tell me somethng…how humane is it when a mother pig rolls over and crushed her babies to their death because gestation crates are being outlawed..there goes the price of pork up… and what about that chicken that gets pecked to death by the other chickens because they are free range? There goes the price of chicken and eggs, the farmers got to get paid for all their hard work.. I for one believe if people would keep their noses out of other peoples business when they know nothing about farming this world would be such a better place. The AR movement is inhumane to humans. You are just as guilty as the people who abuse animals.

      • Regan H says:

        I buy animals from frammers and butcher them myself it’s a lot cheeper and I like knowing how my meat is handled.

  36. Chris Kick says:

    Susan, could you share the humane sources you buy your meat and other foods from? If it’s a particular brand or label, others might want to buy from it, as well.

    • Susan says:

      Chris, at the risk of being ridiculed and slandered, if you google “Humane foods” you will be awarded with many sites to get you started. It is really difficult to sort through a lot of the sites, but if you really want to do it, it’s possible. Good luck with it.

  37. sookie says:

    there are plenty of local farmers that you can buy humane meat from. As well as eggs. There is a website that has them listed by area/zip code.
    As with everything, you need to check each out individually to see if they meet your standards and expectations for humane. I know some farmers only use slaughter houses that they can be sure the animal is knocked out humane and proper before cutting them up for meat.
    I applaud Susan for going the extra mile to obtain her meat at humane sources. Not sure if this is where she got her meat but the link is
    http://www.localharvest.org/

  38. darwin says:

    so Susana and Sookie.. I am guessing neither of you are Jewish or Muslim since neither religion allows for stunning an animal before slaughter..

  39. Susan says:

    You can get certified Humane foods at most organic food stores. http://www.certifiedhumane.com/ = This is a good link to get started, but actually I buy from local farmers who allow their animals to run free from birth until they are slaughtered. I don’t know about the slaughter method, but watching the farmers interact with their animals is rather nice. The cows come up to them to be petted the calves play in the sunshine…very nice. I also buy from the local organic stores who certify that the meat they sell has been organically produced, no hormones or antibiotics. Yes, I guess it does cost a bit more to produce a good product…but it’s worth it.
    I buy free range eggs, eat free range chickens. I buy organic milk…go ahead and laugh. I really don’t have to prove myself to you. What I do for my own health and family really have nothing to do with what you do.
    I do know that the condensending and hateful attitude on this blog is not only self defeating, it is childish. I guess with the aptitude of a little one, it’s hard to understand there are other ways of doing something, not just your way. And, perhaps your way is the only way you know, but couldn’t you be receptive to improvement? I don’t get the attitude you cop with anyone who disagrees with you.
    I will continue to eat my little hunks of meat, grown in the sunshine and fed on the good stuff. If you want to clog your arteries with fat laden hormone filled antibiotic meats, that’s your choice. Doozeldorf, you are starting to sound manic. Do you really expect anyone to respect your views when you are so hateful?

  40. darwin says:

    “I don’t mind paying more’ is an oft told animal rights mantra.. what these people do not realize is not everyone has the “luxury” to pay more. A quick trip to a sop kitchen will show you that not everyone ( mostly children) have the ability to “pay more”
    We do waste a ton of food in this country but as food prices rise.. and they will .. a lot.. with the oil scarcity.. that will become a thing of the past.a dn more children will go to bed hungry because their mothers and fathers ( if they have them around) cannot “afford to pay more” Susan that “extra mile” now cost a few extra dollars.. if you have it.. great.. your choice.. but leave the poor people alone.. would i rather have chicken in a smaller cage to provide more cheap food.. you bet I wold.. and so would any really hungry person..
    Which Comes First.. The Chicken or the Child??
    In this case is to 100% CHICKEN.. but not in my book. seen too many protein starved people..

  41. Susan says:

    Ya know, Darwin, you can justify anything. PRotien isn’t only from meat. Beans, legumes, tofu, all provide wonderful protiens. If it is protien starvation, that chicken raised in the overcrowded cage being fed meat byproducts instead of healthy grain isn’t a good choice. The beans and eggs will provide a better source of protien, and if it were MY child, I would go with the beans.
    You can’t leave alone, can you? I will agree to disagree with you, and I am sure others who have been reading this blog will be thankful to be away from the rants.
    You get what you pay for. I will pay a little more to have better quality. I don’t have to eat in a soup kitchen, but if I did, I guess I would be thankful for what ever morsels I received. The soup kitchens I have volunteered for seem to be thankful for any food they get. My only regret is that an animal has to suffer to feed the humans. I just wish it could be different. I guess in a perfect world, it would be. Or, perhaps when it becomes mandated????

    • doozledorf says:

      LOL..that is why vegetarians have to take supplements derived from animals.. stop the hypocricy and just enjoy a nice steak..the golden rule of life..everything in moderation….

      • Susan says:

        And, meat eaters have to take statins to reduce their cholesterol. And,people with B12 def. have to take supplements, and people who don’t get enough D have to take supplements. And, perimenopausal women take HRT. And, men who have ED take Viagra. You are not making sense…you seem to think that eating meat is the panacea for the population. What are you raging about? It isn’t the meat producers, it’s the pharmaceutical producers…you see, there is a pill for just about everyone. Meat isn’t the issue in that fight! If you want to believe that eating meat will cure everything, more power to you.

      • doozledorf says:

        Wow what Nursing school did you go to…mine told me that your body is in perfect homeostasis and anything that is put into your body will throw it off… I do not take any medicines and will not…My body heals itself… Don’t you just love those comercials about medicines with all the warnings, all the things that can go wrong when you take the medicine…LOL.. makes you want to run out and buy some..”NOT” Your better off with the problems you have and just wait it out..pills are a cover up not a cure. Good Healthy food from all the food groups are essential to good health..I’m sure you had to take nutrition too since you are a nurse or did you sleep through that class? Eat your Lagunes and I will eat my meat..both my grandmother lived long healthy lives, one was 101 the other 103..they were hard working farmers and ate what they produced.

    • FED-UP &PO'd farmer says:

      Susan, you obviously dont want to “learn”-you just want to push your opinions onto us. You refuse to admit that you know NOTHING about animal husbandry and yet continue to spew lies about farmers…I cant make this any clearer: FOOD ANIMALS RAISED ON MODERN FARMS DO NOT-repeat-DO NOT SUFFER IN ANY WAY, SHAPE OR FORM!!!! You sadly have been mislead by the animal rights groups, and what is worse, have closed your mind to getting the truth. It is sad that you are so Anti-American that you have resorted to attempting to force your opinion onto others. Maybe one of these days you will truely be hungry- like many are in other parts of the world. I guess that is what it will take to make people who think like you realize how fortunate the US citizens were to have an abundant, safe and nutritious supply of food that was affordable-that includes animal products from animals that did NOT suffer in any way when they were raised.

      • Susan says:

        Ok…now I’m anti Amnerican? Give me a break. This is about, and ONLY about, humane treatment of animals. If you treat yours well, I have not fight with you. If you are one of those who factory farm and have no regard for your animals, you can go to hell for all I care. I am out of this fight now. How dare you tell me I’m anti American. My father, grandfather, brother, uncles, have all been in the service. I can see now that you are irrational and ignorant. Can’t argue with someone like that, because it just brings you down to their level. So, I’m done.

    • Regan H says:

      MANDATED??? Don’t say that,your trying to push veganism down our throats, and you know we don’t like that.

      • FED-UP &PO'd farmer says:

        Regan H, I believe what Susan was refering to was HSUS putting their ballot up to vote to force farmers to do what HSUS tells them to do. I find it sad that someone recognizes people are in poverty but would rather see calves running around open, green fields -and making sure they are routinely petted and played with- than help make sure children and fellow humans have food in their bellies. As far as Im concerned, helping and looking after fellow humans is the American way, but I suppose that there sadly are people who would rather place a value of animals above that of fellow humans-innocent children included.

  42. darwin says:

    Since my best friend has two adopted children I will tell you what i think. Yes she paid a huge fee and lots of “under the table “money to bring them here.. so yes she did pay to get them them.. however.. her children are adopted not purchased .. pets are bought sold traded or bartered..as I said .. there is no shame in saying you bought your dog.. or cat or bird..only animal rights people try to be anthropomorphic about the ‘adoption” of animals.. and you know what.. it lowers the wonderful thing my friend did.. she brought two children into her home as HER own.. not as pets.. but as humans.. you denigrate her and her children every time you use the word “adopted’ about a pet.
    By the way.. she is also a dog breeder who SELLS her dogs.. and has bought her breeding stock..

    • Susan says:

      To state that one adopts anything in no way denegrates what your friend did. Don’t we adopt laws? I happen to adopt animals. Your friend and my friends have adopted children. Adopt is to accept into your life…no matter what it is….If your friend is that thinned skinned that they are offended with using the word adoption in regards to animals and legislation, I feel sorry for them. I think you are just looking for disagreements. Geez dude, give it a rest. It must be hard to be so stinking cranky all the time.

      • darwin says:

        Adopt Meaning and Definition

        1. (v. t.) To take by choice into relationship, as, child, heir, friend, citizen, etc.; esp. to take voluntarily (a child of other parents) to be in the place of, or as, one’s own child.

        this is the first meaning of adopt.. we pass laws.. create laws.. write laws.. please note that this definition calls for “in the place of one’s own child”.. THAT is what many animal rights people do… it is called ( again ) anthropomorphizing.

        an·thro·po·mor·phism (nthr-p-môrfzm)
        n.
        Attribution of human motivation, characteristics, or behavior to inanimate objects, animals, or natural phenomena.

        . which is why we have terms like
        “pet parent” and “fur kid”.. they may seem innocuous but our lexicon is what shapes our culture..dogs and cats are NOT humans.. and you denigrate the human adoption process by comparing the two.
        Take a step back and stop giving animals attributes they do not possess. They have enough great things about them without trying to make them human.

    • doozledorf says:

      I think the reason AR people use the term Adopt, is that when they raid people if they own the animal, they will have a harder time confiscating it…but if you adopt it..it is not your personal property.
      They make up terms as they need them… but they have stole the term adopt.. there is no such thing as a factory farm, puppy mill..these are all words made up by the AR group to further push their agenda…

  43. sookie says:

    @Susan,
    I don’t think many people are laughing at you Susan. It’s a growing trend. Humanely raised meat right from the farmer. Consumers today want to know where there food is coming from.

    • Mary says:

      The smaller farms cannot ever hope to supply this country with enough meat to feed them. Access to these farmers is also limited, especially to people in the cities/inner cities. The cost is also prohibitive. Do I want to pay twice as much for eggs that were laid on the ground in mud and manure or buy the nice clean ones that come from clean hens and clean facilities? Can a family of four or more, many these days where it is lucky to have even one parent working, really afford that wonderful humane meat that you, the ELITE can afford? I guess you are in the upper class and entitled to not only meat but ‘Humane’ meat! Let the masses eat whatever you won’t. Nice.

      I am so tired of being told what to eat, what not to eat, what I can own, how many dogs I can own, what type of dogs I can own, whether they must have invasive surgery to remove healthy and critical-to-health-organis, whether I can breed my dog, how many puppies/litters I can breed even if I have a list of people as long as my arm waiting for years for a puppy from my breeding, and on, and on…

      The mention of puppy mills is another hot topic for me. There is no such thing, no legal definition, just another emotional name concocted by the ARs. There are commercial breeders. They are either meeting standards of care or not. Instead of closing them down, they should be made to clean it up if they are substandard.

      We have free enterprise in this country, except when it comes to animals. Why on earth is it so horrible for a breeder to make money on a litter – although I have never met one that did. But I am sure commercial kennels make money or they would not be in existence. Commercial breeding can be done correctly, and there ARE commercial kennels that are doing it correctly. Why would we want to close those down because they have more than x (pull any number out of the air) dogs?

      I own a cropped and docked breed. Docking is done at 2-3 days old, when the discomfort if even felt at that stage by a puppy is minute. Puppies cry because they are removed from the security of the litter for the few minutes it takes to do the docking. When they are placed back with the litter, they immediately quiet down and go back to either sleeping or feeding. Cropping when done by a vet is not a traumatic or barbaric procedure. It is much less than the spay/neuter surgeries. Yet they want to take away our right to have the procedures done, calling them elective. To me, spay/neuter are elective and invasive surgeries. Why is one OK and the other not? Having had 6 cropped puppies here, they come home on pain killers. They sleep, they eat, they play. Within a few days it is healed up. It took WEEKS for the last bitch I had spayed to heal and get back to normal.

      The statement that factory farms are full of diseases is absolutely false! These are the cleanest facilities to raise our feed animals.

      Sows often roll on piglets and even eat them. Is that more humane than using a gestation crate to prevent that from happening? I have seen hogs and sows in life and they are definitely not ‘Babe’. One in particular tried to kill my friend’s young son.

      The bottom line is this: Even if you eat meat, your demands to make farming more ‘humane’ will result in changes that are not based on science or thousands of years of experience in animal husbandry. They will mandate changes that most farmers cannot afford; ironically, it is exactly these small farmers that you buy your ‘humane’ meat from that will be put out of business. Factory farms will flourish as they will be able to better afford making changes. That will not be enough for HSUS and the AR’s, though. They will continue to push through legislation to limit the number of animals permitted per factory farm, just as they limite the number of pets owned and bred already.

      Chickens often cannibalize other chickens when they are uncaged. They also are silly creatures that easily panic and rush together, suffocating some of the chickens in the process. Is that humane?

      I hate the words ‘factory farms’. That is just ridiculous. These are large-scale farm that are efficient in growing animals for meat and dairy, and the far majority of them are clean with contented animals. The videos you see are STAGED. These people are hired under false pretences (a crime), and they are PAID to capture video showing abuse.

  44. MFW says:

    Sookie you’re right. I also believe that animals feel pain and have the ability to be frightened as well. They also have the ability to feel and respond to positive stimuli like the scratch on their neck. As far as the “deep pain” they feel when a cow is separated from their calf–I guess I can’t answer that…but neither can you. That’s an emotional pain. I’m not convinced animals have the ability to sense emotion and you can not show me they do.

    You mentioned you own a dog. Is that dog with its mother? You realize that most pets in homes today were separated from their mothers just weeks after birth right?

    • sookie says:

      most pups are nursed by their own mother, then eventually weaned and started on puppy food. Baby calves are pulled before they can nurse. I believe there is an example of this in the Conklin investigative video; portraying Billy Bob force-feeding the calf with a tube. (the scene where he was punching the calf on the head)

      There are many instances where animals show deep emotional grief. There is an excellent short essay written by Nicholas Kristof in July 2008. “A Farm Boy Reflects”. He was a meat eater, and still is…but his essay is an honest insightful look at the emotion and pain an animal often goes through. Just google “A Farm Boy Reflects, The New York Times July 31 2008″ and take a gander. No pun intended, but geese are mentioned.

      • MFW says:

        I stand corrected Sookie, I thought the argument used by animal rights activists like yourself was that the young were ripped away from their mothers side, that being a cruel “emotionally tragic” event. I didn’t realize that the appropriate way to mitigate the emotional stress these animals undergo would be to allow them to nurse for 6 weeks, gain a greater “emotional attachment” during that time and then rip them away….and call it ‘weaning’.

        I must have forgotten that short essays from boys reflecting on the past were considered proof in today’s society.

      • Regan H says:

        Sookie you don’t know what you are alking about. how many litters of pups have you had how many calves have you raised? Probale none, every bitch I’ve raised pups out of were glad to see the pups weened and gone they get tierd of them.

  45. darwin says:

    by the way Susan.. dogs not not “love” each other.. which is why they will breed with any other dog regardless of relationship.. dogs have no morals.. they will bite you one minute and lick you the next,breed their mothers sisters or vice versa… does that make them bad. .. no it just makes them animals..it is also why you as an animal rights supporter want to remove their HEALTHY sexual organs at an early age.and force the rest of us to do the same..
    the other point is Susan.. you have a choice when it comes to food.. many do not. count yourself among the lucky ones.
    and of course the AR “threat” of mandated is always there.. do as we say .. a quick trip to Uganda or Zimbabwe will show you what it is like to live in a “mandated” society.. where food is so scare people eat green corn from the stalks.
    You people have no idea how lucky you are..when all you have to worry about is chickens

    • sookie says:

      From Factory Farms and Environment Facts: “A vegetarian diet can feed significantly more people than a meat-centered diet. More than 840 million people in the world are malnourished, yet over 70 percent of the U.S. grain harvest and 80 percent of its corn harvest is fed to farmed animals. The grain consumed by animals could feed 800 million hungry people, according to Cornell University research.
      Valuable water resources are also squandered for meat production. For every pound of meat produced, grain-fed animals utilize over 13,000 gallons of water. A pound of soybeans requires only about 260 gallons of water. “The typical North American diet, with its large share of animal products, requires twice as much water to produce as the less meat-intensive diets common in many Asian and some European countries. Eating lower on the food chain could allow the same volume of water to feed two Americans instead of one, with no loss in overall nutrition.” (Scientific American, “Growing More Food with Less Water” by Sandra Postel, February 2001.)
      Intensive animal agriculture is a vast user of fossil fuel, mainly for the production of feed. “Assuming (a steer) continues to eat 25 pounds of corn a day and reaches a weight of 1,250 pounds, he will have consumed in his lifetime roughly 284 gallons of oil. We have succeeded in industrializing the beef calf, transforming what was once a solar-powered ruminant into the very last thing we need: another fossil-fuel machine.” (New York Times Magazine, “Power Steer” by Michel Pollan, March 2003.)
      Green food, green planet “

      • Mary says:

        Based on the title, I would guess this is an AR book. The fact is you would need a mountain of non-meat food to get the nutrition you get from one beef steer. And look at the disasters lately, flooding, drought, etc. When you can feed animals and get so much more as a result, would you want to count on being able to produce enough grain and plants to feed so many people? The ‘facts’ you state are twisted. Oh, and don’t forget all the PESTICIDES they use on grain and plants. Yum!

      • M. W. says:

        Steers are our highest water consumers that are specifically designed to produce meat. The average feedlot steer will consume about 11 gallons of water each day. http://www.omafra.gov.on.ca/english/engineer/facts/07-023.htm#2

        In the typical production set-up a steer is going to be 1,500 pounds at slaughter and it will take approximately 15 months or 450 days to reach this market weight. When we use these numbers it’s easy to see that one pound of beef (again the meat product which consumes the most water to produce) is producing at a rate of 3.3 gallons of water for every pound of beef produced. Of course this over-estimates water consumption because the animal is consuming 11 gallons of water a day only in the last 3-4 months of its life. When it’s a calf it is consuming far less.

        I acknowledge that you may be able to count every drop of rain that produced the grain to feed that steer as water required to produce that pound of beef, but when it comes to producing the beef…you can only count the water required to produce that product and in this case clearly it’s no more than 3.3 gallons per pound of product. What about the other meat products produced with much less water? Your animal rights material will only work on someone a little more naïve and gullible.

        Now we get to the fact that the majority of grains and carbohydrates fed to animals are indigestible within monogastrics (humans), when we consider the fact that ruminants are able to convert poor energy feedstuffs into high calorie, protein dense materials, you really can’t beat it. Consider the fact that the majority of the product consumed to produce beef is grass…..which grows quite well in places where we can’t grow vegetables (crops) suitable for human consumption and it really becomes a win win. Add to this the fact that feed for animals can be dried and stored to winter over allowing us to grow a plentiful food supply year round when crops aren’t able to be on the ground in most areas of the world and it becomes quite clear how without animals, humans starve. Claiming that a vegetarian lifestyle is better for the environment and more sustainable is an absolute farce, in fact, it would be impossible to sustain our current population on a plant based (especially organic plant) based diet.
        Inflated the requirements may suite your argument…it may even persuade people to buy into your animal rights agenda, but it’s not going to work here.

      • Regan H says:

        Sookie Agin you don’t know what you are talking about! you can’t feed a STEER 25# OF CORN A DAY IT WOULD KILL HIM, HE’D FONDER JUST LIKE A HORSE, KNOW WHAT YOU’RE TALKING ABOUT BEFORE YOU SPEAK, WE KNOW BETTER YOU DON’T.

  46. sookie says:

    @MFW…although he’s kinda cute, he’s not a “boy” :-)
    Nicholas Donabet Kristof (born April 27, 1959 in Chicago, Illinois) is an American journalist, author, op-ed columnist, and a winner of two Pulitzer Prizes. He has written an op-ed column for The New York Times since November 2001 and is widely known for bringing to light human rights abuses in Asia and Africa, such as human trafficking and the Darfur conflict. He has lived on four continents, reported on six, and traveled to 150 countries and all 50 states. According to his blog, during his travels he has had “unpleasant experiences with malaria, wars, an Indonesian mob carrying heads on pikes, and an African airplane crash”.[1] Jeffrey Toobin of CNN and The New Yorker, a Harvard classmate, has said: “I’m not surprised to see him emerge as the moral conscience of our generation of journalists

    • MFW says:

      Man, woman, boy, girl, antelope, whatever the case may be. A journalist is not a credible source of information simply because he wrote a through provoking piece. Surely, there have been many inaccurate, yet thought-provoking accounts written in our society; even those worthy of a Pulitzer prize. Only to the Humane sSociety of the United States, animal rights activists like you, and other uneducated individuals can these accounts be taken as research and scientific proof.

      I can write a non-fictional piece on one isolated event and clearly even you understand how that event could be unrepresentative of others like it. This doesn’t even begin to recognize that a man’s account is his interpretation that has no validity in science, it’s not reproducible, it’s not methodical and it’s not scientific.

  47. sookie says:

    Web MD site says…
    One-half cup of beans contains as much protein as three ounces of broiled steak. Plus, these nutritious nuggets are loaded with fiber to keep you feeling full for hours.

  48. darwin says:

    web Md?? WEB MD?? lol.. I am sorry but that is really funny.. not to mention M.W’s excellent post you must also remember that the WHOLE animal is used..bones, hooves, etc.. all used of some sort of benefit to man.. and beast.. where do you think dog and cat food comes from.. plants? Cats are obligate carnivore and dogs are natural carnivore who can and should exist mainly on a meat based diet.. yes they can exist on a veggie diet but it is not a natural diet for them. Cats will die without meat.. and both can exist on a a purely meat/fat diet with no need for any plants at all.
    but back to the point.. when a cow is slaughtered.. much much more than just the meat is used.. hides, bones, gristle, fat and renderings.. all used.. no waste at all.. heck you can even produce methane to offset energy costs instead of using petroleum products…. beef.. is is MORE than what’s for dinner.. hmm maybe that should be an ad for the beef council..

    • sookie says:

      Darwin, writing “and that’s a FACT” does not make what you say a fact.

      Web MD…. just giving my source. But then again, any google on nutrition will give you these numbers :-) BTW, 4 oz of almonds had the same amount of protein as 3 oz of beef. Minus the animal grease, hormones and antibiotics.

      • Regan H says:

        Sookie who in their right mind would want tree seeds over beef we are not birds or squirrels, I eat birds and squirrels.

  49. sookie says:

    Change is not an easy thing for everybody. Some people fight it and some thrive on it. As I said in previous posts, you can eat what you wish. That’s your perogative. But the way the meat is being brought to the consumer will change. The demand for humane treatment of farm animals is out there. Like it or not.

    • Susan says:

      Sookie, I am out of this battle, on this blog. The mud slinging isn’t resolving anything. I will vote with my concious, and I will continue to promote a healthier lifestyle, including eating less meat. I am done with this degrading, mudslinging group. Good luck…and Amen Sistah, again.

      • sookie says:

        Susan, I agree. You can lead a calf to milk, but you can’t make him drink. Unless you’re an inhumane farm and knock him on the head with a crow-bar, that is. You made many excellent points in this debate :-) Catch you in another blog

    • MFW says:

      The argument was not based on ‘humanity’. I was arguing about your use of insensible claims to justify your stance on humane food production. I recognize it makes it more difficult to persuade people to follow your crooked belief mechanism when you’re forced to use fact as a foundation for your claims.

      Ignorance is bliss. You believe you understand something that you do not. Not only do you believe it but you want to preach it from the mountain tops. Again, I really don’t care about your prerogative. Why not just use your true feelings to justify your point to others. you FEEL that a calf is happier when it is raised in the time of environment that YOU FEEL is best for it. I, and noone else really, can argue with you about your feelings. Of course, people like me will use facts to disprove your FEELINGS but at the end of the day if you stick to what you FEEL and use that for your arguments you’ve at least made your points honestly.

  50. MFW says:

    Sookie, you’re a well trained animal rights activist. I’m willing to bet you’re probably being paid for your time to comment on this forum. Before you leave could you provide the readers with some scientific research to back your feelings?

    I refuted line by line the emotionally based comments you made and left my opinions out of most of it. I’m certain you can see how you, and the animal rights agencies you work for (like the Humane Society of the United States) will lose credibility with the typical reader of this forum if you fail to represent your feelings with non-biased information.

  51. sookie says:

    MFW, I’m an activist, but unfortunately, not paid. Thank you for the compliment that I’m well trained. I got involved by volunteering my time to gather signatures in the ballot initiative. THe more I learn, the more I want to be involved. I am not being biased. I have heard both sides. From consumers as well as farmers and others in the farming industry. Every person I talked with while gathering signatures has the same “feelings” as me regarding factory farming. That’s why they signed. And that is why they are fully expecting the agreement to be honored.

    • Mary says:

      Well that explains a lot! Yes, when you tell them you are getting them to sign a petition to make farming more humane of COURSE you will get people that know NOTHING about farming to sign it. Who doesn’t want animals to be treated humanely, after all. What those nitwits don’t know is how they are already treated humanely. I ran into a couple of you signature-takers and I made sure there was a nice line waiting to sign and then I presented the truth and why I would absolutely not sign that petition. It was interesting to watch the people in line walk away. They are uneducated. This is what our Ohio farmers need to really concentrate on, educating all these city slickers that don’t understand what is going on. Some farms have wonderful tours. These need to grow and get more attention, so the uneducated can see how well farm animals are treated. It is so easy to tell if an animal is content or not. We already voted once to keep HSUS out, our previous governor sold us out, and now we just have to vote again to keep HSUS out. When voters understand, and learn about the disastrous economic affects of having HSUS ruin animal agriculture in Ohio, I really think they will ‘get it’. So all I have to say to Pacelle is ‘bring it on!’.

    • Regan H says:

      Sookie if it comes to the ballet 2/3 of the people who singed will vote aginst because they are smart to whats going on now before they weren’t think about that.

  52. doozledorf says:

    “EVERYBDODY you talked to has the same feelings as you do about factory farms?” Now that is a big lie and you know it…But that is the AR movement for you..lie lie lie….how can they derive a position on “Factory Farming”, when there is no such thing…it is a made up term by the AR activists… The people of Ohio are not stupid enough to let the AR movement dictate as to how our agriculture will be run…we do not need people who no nothing about farming except for what they have read in a book to tell us what to do as far as our livestock is involved.

  53. Mary says:

    Susan, yes, wanting something to happen that will harm so many Americans (as in starving them) and to put our farmers and ranchers out of business IS Anti-American in my book. Factory farms are humane, you need to go visit one instead of relying on all the AR propaganda and staged videos. Guess it is just easier to sit back and drink the koolade.

  54. Mary says:

    Amy, it is hard for anyone to believe that what HumaneWatch presents is nothing but pure fact. Does anyone believe HSUS would not sue and force HumaneWatch to remove untruths? AHA! HSUS can’t do it because even THEY know it is the truth!

    And yes, there are a ton of rescuers and shelter people on NAIA and HumaneWatch. HumaneWatch focuses on dogs because that is how HSUS swindles people out of their money, putting those sad shelter puppies in ads and getting that $19 a month when NONE OF THAT MONEY goes to those shelter puppies.

    It is also why the IRS is investigating them. They have no right to 501(c)3 status because the bulk of their money is used for LOBBYING not to help animals. Yes, that is a fact, too!

  55. Mary says:

    Amy, I am laughing hysterically here. Yes, I hope everyone looks at the site you sent us on how much the HSUS gave in grants. Wow, probably bought 10 bags of dog food at some of those shelters. In return, HSUS charges like $25,000 to survey a shelter and give them a list of recommendations. Holy cow! What were you thinking to give us this wonderful site that just PROVES OUR POINT! LOL!

    Do you know that Humane Societies are changing their names to take the Humane Society part out to be able to totally disassociate themselves from HSUS? People think when they give to HSUS that money goes to their local Humane Societies.

    I’m going to now have so much fun sharing this linke you provided ALL OVER Facebook and my lists. Thank you so much for sharing!

  56. darwin says:

    I dare you.. dare you to run down to your local shelter ans ask them how much money the HSUS gave them last year..the answer will be NONE.. or very little.. My local shelter posts Humane Watch posters everywhere. my vet keeps HW literature in his office..they know the truth when it hits them in the pocketbook.
    Sookie and Susan .. are you members of the Socialist Party? seems you philosophy is right in line.. along with the HSUS..if the HSUS believes in “humane meat’ why no recipes on their website that include it.. also why no eggs, dairy or poultry..where is their list of “humane” meat, dairy and egg sources?

    A quote from “Socialist Worker”

    “Speaking out for animal rights, challenging livestock farming practices
    and rationales, fits well with a wider anti-capitalist understanding of
    how the world works. But powerful as veganism may be, politicization of
    the diet can be taken still further towards anti-capitalism with the
    addition of other tactics which determine food choice.”

  57. Mary says:

    This is the type of education that we really need to get out there. For large-scale and small-scale farms, YouTube videos are ideal for educating the masses.

    http://www.youtube.com/SmithfieldFoods

  58. darwin says:

    think it is just Humane Watch that is on to the HSUS.. try this
    http://yesbiscuit.wordpress.com/2010/12/29/thanks-to-hsus-animal-survivors-die-in-2010/

    or just google the Alabama 44 and the HSUS.. this is modus operandi for this “charity”

  59. FFA 73 says:

    Who is going to care for these 23,000 calves if half the Veal Farmers in Ohio go out of business?
    Are the A/R groups going to ‘adopt’ them?
    Let’s think about “unintended conssequences”: How has the horse slaughter ban worked out?
    Many want to say that all the farmer can see is dollars. Well, as much as most farmers wouldn’t want to admit it, we ARE NOT NON-PROFIT ORGANIZATIONS! If the economics do not work for these Veal Farmers, they will not be doing it. That’s OK in the A/R’s book. If that happens; again, WHAT WILL HAPPEN TO THESE 23,000 CALVES?
    These farmers care passionately for these animals. They gave testimony to that on March 1. They have no motivation to provide anything other than the best of care. How do these Holstein bull calves respond to such care? They grow 40% faster than calves on dairy farms.
    All the rehtoric, all the critisms; these farmers are saying this issue is not as simple as putting intact Holstein bulls, that weigh up to 500# in a group pen to “bully” one another. Just for the A/R activists to say “there, you figure it out”.
    They are responding, “No, that will be someone else’s problem”.

    • MFW says:

      Veal producers are raising BULL (male) calves. Dairy producers are raising HEIFER (female)calves. I appreciate your comments but its important not to make one part of agriculture seem less ‘humane’ in an attempt to ameliorate another.

      I’m not sure where the ’40% faster growth’ figure came from and I would challenge it if it made a difference to know. In the end, all that really matters is that we understand heifers are very different from bulls and the mostly milk diet of a veal calf is very different from the diet of dairy calves, growth rates are different, but its in no relation to welfare standards.

      The veal farms I have visited are taking excellent care of their calves, the dairy producers are as well. At the end of the day, all that matters is how those involved with agriculture educate the consumer. To HSUS all that matters is milk, meat and dairy are removed from your plate, in any way possible.

      Respond in a calm manner, in a truthful way and with facts to back your opinions and you will succeed in unveiling the truth behind the biased, factually baseless, lying animal rights agenda. It just takes time, but, most consumers really do want to learn the truth and can quickly see which side is telling the truth when given the opportunity to hear from a farmer. Farmers should share some truth with every person they meet; it would make a profound and lasting impression on our consumers.

      • FFA 73 says:

        You are correct MFW. As one Veal farmer stated on March 1, “Boys are boys and girls are girls”. The comparison eluded to was that of bulls and bulls. Veal calves gain 2.5-2.7# per day. Dairy beef bulls of the same age are about 1# per day less. It was not my intent to provide that information as a ‘superior model’; just to draw the conclusion that these animals thrive in their controlled environment.
        You are correct bulls are not heifers. Heifers do not drink each others urine when placed in a group. Heifers are much more docile, and will ride each other mainly during estrus. Bulls “bully” each other for dominance. Activities include head butting, riding each other and even tail biting. Their WILL be excessive competition in group pens with Bulls.
        Veal consumers are enjoying a high quality, nutrient dense protein, with the assurance that these animals were well cared for predominately by family farmers.
        It is those that have an agenda to remove animal proteins from our diet that want to see the “lowest hanging fruit” go away.

  60. Mary says:

    With dog seizures conducted by HSUS, they go and seize all the dogs and puppies and drop them off at a shelter. Now it’s the shelter’s problem. Oh, and by the way, HSUS does nothing to support that shelter.

    So you have a good question FFA 73. You farmers care, we that are fighting HSUS and their ilk care, but HSUS doesn’t care what will happen to them. HSUS doesn’t really care about the animals, you see. They just USE them to make millions for themselves.

    They also don’t care about horses. Instead of slaughter houses, we now have starved horses, roaming horses, homeless horses. Except for the ones that are trucked down to Mexico and killed under horribly inhumane conditions. HSUS made a ton of money on that campaign, got to throw their weight around, and now they are out of the picture. Are THEY providing for these poor horses? Of course not! Not their problem.

  61. okiestorm1 says:

    Mary you forgot to mention the the $500 a pop the HSUS is going to make off the PZP drug they talked the BLM into giveing to the wild mustang mares to stop reproduction.It is thier way of completely fazeing out the mustamgs all together just like HSUS and PETA pushing to stop the breeding of domestic animals it is to stop them completely not to controll the population but to do away with them all together.The videos I have noticed that they are posting on FB about the circus animals being abused are ones from years ago and not even in the USA.They have also started a campaign to do away with rodeos and some zoo animals and ofcourse hunting.They say hunting is murder though PETA kills 85percent of the animals they rescue and HSUS just wants them all gone.

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